Go Back   Hardware Canucks > CASES & COOLING > Water Cooling

    
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old November 20, 2008, 06:20 AM
Exmortis's Avatar
Top Prospect
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 172
Default Introduction (new to HC)

Good day fellow Canucks!

Just an introduction to a new member, long time visitor to the site.
I just finally decided to pull the trigger on setting up a new water cooled system and knew that I may be of need of some expert adive found here. Also been in the geek business for many many years and may even be able to offer some adivce of my own. Like DO NOT spell your coffee on an open server while leaning over with one hand trying to add new ECC memory and sipping the cup of liquid gold all at the same time. Thats just the fountain of new unknown obscure knowledge I have to share. :rtfm:

I have pulled the trigger on the first of three purchases to get my new system under way, I have the following hardware to get working. My system specs are:

Lian-LI V2000 Plus II Black case
DFI 790FXB-MRSH Mobo
8GB (4x2GB) Mushkin DDR2-800
AMD 6400+ X2
ATI HD4870 512MB
2xSeagate 7200.10 500GB Mirriored
Seagate 7200.11 640GB
LG DVD burner
Noctua C style CPU cooler
Auzentech Prelude 7.1
Samsung 24' LCD
Vista X64 Premium

Good system all arund, looking forward to Deneb big time. Will buy new Black Phenom IIs after release. Really happy with Vista x64, all my apps saw 20% performance increase across the board if not more, and I run all 32bit games.

MY new water cooling setup will contain the following:

Coolermaster ATCs 840 case
Cooler Master - Ultimate provider of Computer Chassis | Cooler | Power Supply

Swittech MCP355 pump with XSPC aftermarket top
Swiftech
XSPC - Performance PC Cooling

Swiftech triple 129mm rad and a single 120 rad
Swiftech
Swiftech

XSPC Delta V3 CPU water block
XSPC - Performance PC Cooling

XSPC Razor 4870 full coverage water block
XSPC - Performance PC Cooling

XSPC acrylic reservoir
XSPC - Performance PC Cooling

Noctua NF-P12 fans (5 in total)
Noctua.at - sound-optimised premium components "Designed in Austria"!

Thermaltake Hard Cano 12se Fan controller
Thermaltakeusa»Accessories»Drive Bay»Hardcano 12 SE : Hardcano 12 SE A2349

Tygon tubing (3/8)
Swiftech Chrome bards (G1.4 3/8)
Swittech tube coils


Loop will be the following:
As per case I will mount the triple rad mounted to top of case with 3 Noctua fans chained together and run from one channel on the controller.
Single rad mounted eithe ron inatke on bottom of case or rear exhaustw with one noctua fan. Fan on channel two of controller.
Will use 2 S-Flex fans for extra fans on HD mounting cage I all ready have.
Will mount the Pump on the bottom of the case, or on a bracket I mount to the bottom of case (unknown until I get case in grubby little Hands)
Res will be mounted in top most 5 1/4 bay avilable, will not be sure until I moun the rad. These will be chanined to channel 3 on controller/or front 230mm.
Hardcano fan controller will most likely go in bottom most 5 1/4 bay since case will be on desk.
Will fill extra Fan with Noctua fan, mostl likely extra bottom slot, will be on channel 4 of controller.
Loop will run from res, to pump to 120.3 rad to CPU to 120.1 rad to GPU to res.
Hardcano temp leads will be mounted to side of water block of CPU/GPU and NB/SB.

Single loop, with aftermarket top the pump should be more then powerful enough, the swiftech rads are very non restirctive by Martinlabs testing. The single rad is just to give a small boost to cooling between CPU and GPU for max overclocks.

Thats my plan, yes I have researched this for months, its the way I am.

I do how ever need some advice from our resident experts:

Clamps - Plastic seems pretty much worthless (why are they sold?), Worm clamps seem overkill and bulky, compression have their own issues and frankly way over prices. So where does that leave me? Spring metal clamps seem the way to go but cannot source them anywhere, OD 5/8 tubing is what I will use, maybe hardware stores may carry there? Need some help here.

Water Additive - I am really torn here. about once every 3 months I travel from Ottawa to Kingston to visit friends and I bring computer, though my truck is heated, anti-freeze agent is wanted to ensure I have no issues. I have been considering just good ole Prestone, if its good enough for cars it will work for my computer. Pentosin G11 is highly rated. Zerex has not anti-freeze components and neither does any over priced over hyped liquid coolant additive in the computer market. Fluid XP sounds good, but no anti-freeze and raally I would bet money that non-conductivity would not last lone in a loop. I hear people need to replace their loop fluid yearly, well this realyl doesnt do much for hype of fluids for liquid cooling, youi can get 5yrs in a cafr with high grade prestone. Am I over analysing this? Ok Yes I know I am, we are talkin about liquid in a place it doesn't belong, computers do not work well as colored water fountains for long.

Cleaning of components - Can I use just normal prestone rad flush? Vinegar is horridly hard on anything metal, and I cannot even dream what it does to seals. I knwo you need to each component prior to use, what do the experts recommend.

anyhow thanks so much for your time, and assistance, looking forward to reading your advices and comments.

Scott
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old November 20, 2008, 06:24 AM
SKYMTL's Avatar
HardwareCanuck Review Editor
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 11,715
Default

Welcome to the forums!! That is a good looking setup!!
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old November 20, 2008, 06:42 AM
3.0charlie's Avatar
3.0 "I kill SR2's" Charlie
F@H
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Laval, QC
Posts: 9,657

My System Specs

Default

Nice first post... you have done your homework.

Answers:

Plastic clamps still work (I use them from time-to-time), another option could be tye-wraps.
Liquids: I only use Distilled water with a few drops of G11. I've used Primochill's liquid lately, and it seems fine. Swoftech's Hydrx is fine too, green and only green though. No idea about an anti-freeze agent.
Cleaning: Never, ever use vinegar. Flush with distilled water.
__________________
Hydro-Quebec is salivating...
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old November 20, 2008, 09:09 AM
MpG's Avatar
MpG MpG is offline
Hall Of Fame
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kitchener, ON
Posts: 3,144
Default

Welcome! Should be a good system when it's up and running! To answer your questions:

Spring metal clamps can often be had in automotive/hardware stores, but not necessarily in large quantities. If there are any small engines repair shops, they might be a good spot to try. I'm not a fan of them myself, since the wire versions tend to pinch and don't spread the pressure out enough, while the band versions need pliers to use (and if they don't, I'm not convinced they're clamping quite hard enough). Yes, worm clamps are bulky, but they're also very secure and only need a screw-driver to tighten/loosen. Plastic clamps actually work, but you need to pinch them shut with pliers, and I find them a royal pain to get off later on unless you buy a tool for it. Tie wraps are popular, but to be on the safe side, maybe use two/barb, with the clinch points opposite each other.

For anti-freeze, I'd probably point you towards Prestone/equivalent. Do NOT use alcohol - it does nasty things to acrylic. Take a rough estimate of the worst case temperatures, and mix the antifreeze accordingly. Take note that the thermal properties of antifreeze are worse than water, in both thermal capacity and conductivity, so try to avoid using more than necessary. Also, after transporting the rig, be aware that if the entire rig is chilled, moving it back into a room temperature location is a recipe for condensation to occur - make sure the rig returns to room temperature, and that there's no moisture on any components, before turning the system on. Lastly, I'm not 100% positive about the biocidal properties of antifreeze. A drop of biocide (i.e. PT_Nuke) wouldn't hurt, and might help.

Loop flushing can be done with distilled water. If you know you have problems, clean components individually. Down the road, vinegar/rad flush will take off heavy oxidation, but they're a bit of a last resort, and shouldn't be used for more a minute or two, followed by LOTS of flushing. Generally speaking, light oxidation (not to be confused with corrosion) is a non-issue for waterblock/radiators.

The rest of your steup is looking good, but just for reference, your reservoir doesn't actually have to be at the highest point in your system. Just make sure it's the only opening in the loop, and that it's higher than the pump so it gravity feeds. So if it's more convenient/simpler to have it in one of the lower 5 1/4" bays, go right ahead. And make sure the pump's on a little bit of insulation/foam/soft stuff to keep vibration from being transmitted through the case.

Looking forwards to seeing the results!

(and if you haven't put the order in yet, make sure you ship with USPS, not UPS)
__________________
i7 2600K | ASUS Maximus IV GENE-Z | 580GTX | Corsair DDR3-2133
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old November 20, 2008, 09:20 AM
Supergrover's Avatar
Hall Of Fame
F@H
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Okanagan Falls, British Columbia
Posts: 4,250

My System Specs

Default

Those Hardcano's are crap IMO the buttons have a very cheap feel to them and the display can be hard to read depending on the angle. I keept mine for a record month before giving it away to a buddy.
__________________
R.I.P.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.0charlie View Post
My knuckles are bleeding from fishing through walls a new CAT6 network cable... I found fresh, untapped electrical outlets...
"It's all in the Reflexes"-Jack Burton
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old November 20, 2008, 11:00 AM
Exmortis's Avatar
Top Prospect
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supergrover View Post
Those Hardcano's are crap IMO the buttons have a very cheap feel to them and the display can be hard to read depending on the angle. I keept mine for a record month before giving it away to a buddy.
Ok cool info but what you recomend? Hardcano had best reviews over all and had one feature I really liked. Able to use 4pin molex and still sonnect RPM sensor to same channel. Meaning I can chain all 3 fans from one rad together and use middle fans RPM sensor.

Zalman seems to have good one, but reviews all talked of cheap LCD and its angle viewing was horrid, how many sit with direct straight line of sight to their case? Not me.

Very open to suggestions?
__________________
Exmortis's System

Corsair 600T White
Asus RoG Maximus V Gene
Intel i7-2600K w/Corsair H100
16GB Gskill DDR3 2400MHz
AMD R9 290X
OCZ Revo 3 240GB
OCZ Vertex 3 240GB
WD Velocirapter 600GB
LG DVD burner
LG Bluray Burner
Windows 7x64 Prem
Asus VE24/VE27/VE24
Logitech Z-5450 5.1 speakers
Corsair AX850 Gold PSU
Corsair K90 Keyboard

Last edited by Exmortis; November 20, 2008 at 11:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old November 20, 2008, 11:02 AM
Exmortis's Avatar
Top Prospect
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.0charlie View Post
Nice first post... you have done your homework.

Answers:

Plastic clamps still work (I use them from time-to-time), another option could be tye-wraps.
Liquids: I only use Distilled water with a few drops of G11. I've used Primochill's liquid lately, and it seems fine. Swoftech's Hydrx is fine too, green and only green though. No idea about an anti-freeze agent.
Cleaning: Never, ever use vinegar. Flush with distilled water.
Thanks for the info, where do you get the G11? Audi dealership?
__________________
Exmortis's System

Corsair 600T White
Asus RoG Maximus V Gene
Intel i7-2600K w/Corsair H100
16GB Gskill DDR3 2400MHz
AMD R9 290X
OCZ Revo 3 240GB
OCZ Vertex 3 240GB
WD Velocirapter 600GB
LG DVD burner
LG Bluray Burner
Windows 7x64 Prem
Asus VE24/VE27/VE24
Logitech Z-5450 5.1 speakers
Corsair AX850 Gold PSU
Corsair K90 Keyboard
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old November 20, 2008, 11:13 AM
Exmortis's Avatar
Top Prospect
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MpG View Post
Welcome! Should be a good system when it's up and running! To answer your questions:

Spring metal clamps can often be had in automotive/hardware stores, but not necessarily in large quantities. If there are any small engines repair shops, they might be a good spot to try. I'm not a fan of them myself, since the wire versions tend to pinch and don't spread the pressure out enough, while the band versions need pliers to use (and if they don't, I'm not convinced they're clamping quite hard enough). Yes, worm clamps are bulky, but they're also very secure and only need a screw-driver to tighten/loosen. Plastic clamps actually work, but you need to pinch them shut with pliers, and I find them a royal pain to get off later on unless you buy a tool for it. Tie wraps are popular, but to be on the safe side, maybe use two/barb, with the clinch points opposite each other.

So what I am reading is worm clamps are probably my best choice. Coolio, I use em alot at the lake and they are kinda a pain to work with, but yes secure they sure are.


For anti-freeze, I'd probably point you towards Prestone/equivalent. Do NOT use alcohol - it does nasty things to acrylic. Take a rough estimate of the worst case temperatures, and mix the antifreeze accordingly. Take note that the thermal properties of antifreeze are worse than water, in both thermal capacity and conductivity, so try to avoid using more than necessary. Also, after transporting the rig, be aware that if the entire rig is chilled, moving it back into a room temperature location is a recipe for condensation to occur - make sure the rig returns to room temperature, and that there's no moisture on any components, before turning the system on. Lastly, I'm not 100% positive about the biocidal properties of antifreeze. A drop of biocide (i.e. PT_Nuke) wouldn't hurt, and might help.

Anti-freeze is very toxic, actually Ethlene Glycol is border line controlled toxic substance, if it wasn't one of the best card anti-freeze chemicals it probably would be, so it has all the anti-growingthingsinyourwater ability you need. But if I went with just water then PT_NUKE i hear is excellent.

XSPC as a a big font warning not to use alcohol on their top, for that exact reason, it is murder on acrylic. Kinda like heat on ice hehe.

I always ensure my computer warms up for an hour before turning it on, more if its really a cold drive. My truck is heated but being the computer case is metal it traps alot of cold. I usually take case side off too, to ensure air flow to avoid condensation build up.


Loop flushing can be done with distilled water. If you know you have problems, clean components individually. Down the road, vinegar/rad flush will take off heavy oxidation, but they're a bit of a last resort, and shouldn't be used for more a minute or two, followed by LOTS of flushing. Generally speaking, light oxidation (not to be confused with corrosion) is a non-issue for waterblock/radiators.

Coolio just checken to see if I missing soem ancient Chinese cleaning secret.


The rest of your steup is looking good, but just for reference, your reservoir doesn't actually have to be at the highest point in your system. Just make sure it's the only opening in the loop, and that it's higher than the pump so it gravity feeds. So if it's more convenient/simpler to have it in one of the lower 5 1/4" bays, go right ahead. And make sure the pump's on a little bit of insulation/foam/soft stuff to keep vibration from being transmitted through the case.

Yeah thanks, was wondering if placement high was better or not. I will make the chocie based on installation then, easier = better for tubing connections. I want lots of extra slack in places to allow MOBO tray to be slid out for work, with out havign to drain system.

I think the Switech pumps come with a neoprene pad, I have read that it makes a huge difference.

Looking forwards to seeing the results!

Thanks, I am goign to picture log my progress as I begin.


(and if you haven't put the order in yet, make sure you ship with USPS, not UPS)
Canada Post ground. Direct Canada has wicked deal on shiipping. over 50bucks and under 50;bs 99cents any Province. And since I buy 95% of my parts from either direct canada or NCIX (yeah I know same company), I am taking them up on it.
__________________
Exmortis's System

Corsair 600T White
Asus RoG Maximus V Gene
Intel i7-2600K w/Corsair H100
16GB Gskill DDR3 2400MHz
AMD R9 290X
OCZ Revo 3 240GB
OCZ Vertex 3 240GB
WD Velocirapter 600GB
LG DVD burner
LG Bluray Burner
Windows 7x64 Prem
Asus VE24/VE27/VE24
Logitech Z-5450 5.1 speakers
Corsair AX850 Gold PSU
Corsair K90 Keyboard
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old November 20, 2008, 11:25 AM
Supergrover's Avatar
Hall Of Fame
F@H
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Okanagan Falls, British Columbia
Posts: 4,250

My System Specs

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exmortis View Post
Ok cool info but what you recomend? Hardcano had best reviews over all and had one feature I really liked. Able to use 4pin molex and still sonnect RPM sensor to same channel. Meaning I can chain all 3 fans from one rad together and use middle fans RPM sensor.

Zalman seems to have good one, but reviews all talked of cheap LCD and its angle viewing was horrid, how many sit with direct straight line of sight to their case? Not me.

Very open to suggestions?
My tastes are not for everyone but heres what I am going to be adding to my next PerPC order, if they are in stock, next week.
Koolance CTR-CD10BK Pump & Fan Speed Controller, Black Products Model: CTR-CD10BK [CTR-CD10BK] : Performance-PCs.com, ... sleeve it and they will come

Lamptron "FAN-ATIC"- 5 Port Military Switch Baybus - 60 Watts Per Channel - Black Products Model: FAN-ATIC-BK [FAN-ATIC-BK] : Performance-PCs.com, ... sleeve it and they will come
__________________
R.I.P.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.0charlie View Post
My knuckles are bleeding from fishing through walls a new CAT6 network cable... I found fresh, untapped electrical outlets...
"It's all in the Reflexes"-Jack Burton
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old November 20, 2008, 12:05 PM
MpG's Avatar
MpG MpG is offline
Hall Of Fame
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kitchener, ON
Posts: 3,144
Default

That's an interesting little controller unit from Koolance. Just keep in mind, if you're using the temperature function, Koolance temp sensors use a different resistance range than most others, so you'll be limited to using Koolance sensors only. The Alphacool, Bitspower, etc. versions aren't going to work. Which I found out the hard way, unfortuantely.
__________________
i7 2600K | ASUS Maximus IV GENE-Z | 580GTX | Corsair DDR3-2133
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes