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  #11 (permalink)  
Old March 21, 2014, 08:59 AM
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That's a fallacy. Mantle was not the genesis of DX12. Both sought the input of developers and those developers said the same things to AMD and MS. In addition, development of DX12 started in 2009 while Mantle's dev cycle was significantly shorter.

The end result is close to the metal programming and some similarities but under no circumstance can AMD claim Mantle prompted a DirectX evolution.

And for the record: this tit for tat feature blocking, developer buying and targeted optimizations by BOTH AMD and NVIDIA is getting really effing old now. I've just about bloody well had it; it is doing more harm than good to this industry. This is why I'm going to be supporting DX12 as much as possible, regardless of the OS it is available on.
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Old March 21, 2014, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL View Post
And for the record: this tit for tat feature blocking, developer buying and targeted optimizations by BOTH AMD and NVIDIA is getting really effing old now.
This bothers me a lot too. And it's frustrating to customers who don't want to have to figure all of this out before making a purchase.

PC gaming is attracting attention, but it's possible the BS will drive users away again. Gameworks and Mantle are bad for the industry.
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Old March 21, 2014, 11:30 AM
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DX12 is still a long ways off and I am slightly confused. While saying dX12 is compatible with DX11 is good this reads to me by Christmas 2015 we will have a really good version of DX11. Now this might be the right approach as nobody really used DX10 as they were developing for consoles locked to DX9.

I not sure how this will effect mantle AMD has frostbyte and CryEngine support. If it can get Unreal and Unity it will guarantee itself as being an option for most games. If they are integrated into every game engine I can't see AMD throwing that away. Mantle could be made redundant by DX12 but unless the difference between the two is 9% or less I don't think mantle will go anywhere. Can't say how good or bad this is though. Would be interesting to know how much more cost is added on to development having mantle added.
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Old March 21, 2014, 11:45 AM
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Mantle was never going to take over PC gaming, nor was it intended to. AMD, EA, etc all knew DX12 was coming. It's just a way for some games to go red; like gameworks is a way for some games to go green.

Edit: These companies produce product we may be very enthusiastic about it. But on the inside, they're no different than Rogers and Bell.

Last edited by Desiato; March 21, 2014 at 11:50 AM.
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Old March 21, 2014, 06:23 PM
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I don't understand how anyone can be mad about what DX12 is aspiring to become. More efficient > hardware independent > more flexible for developers... all of that means we will get better games and there will be more competition in the PC space, which may result in lower costs.

Yes, you can be mad at Microsoft's pricing plans for windows 9 if they make DX12 exclusive, but don't get mad that they invest hundreds of millions (possibly more) into the development of DX12 and they are trying to be as inclusive of all hardware they can, yet don't give it to Linux. I'm sorry... Linux is great and all, but to expect or think M$ should spend all that money and then just give it away for "free" and either: a) do all the hard working making sure it runs on a bunch of different versions of linux or b) have it buggy on Linux because they don't have the resources M$ does to make it as stable as possible?

Yes, Linux gaming could be a huge blessing for PC games as it cuts out the high cost of a windows OS license and also helps to democratize the system, but I think it is still too early to think we're being screwed by stuff not being on linux just so you can save some $$ on the OS.
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Old March 21, 2014, 07:13 PM
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One way or another gaming will Evolve in comming year or 2 all this new tech will be amazing once its out and stable. I agree though with sky on these companies purposely making certain tech proprietary this isnt the 90's anymore.
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Old March 21, 2014, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draemn View Post
I don't understand how anyone can be mad about what DX12 is aspiring to become. More efficient > hardware independent > more flexible for developers... all of that means we will get better games and there will be more competition in the PC space, which may result in lower costs.

Yes, you can be mad at Microsoft's pricing plans for windows 9 if they make DX12 exclusive, but don't get mad that they invest hundreds of millions (possibly more) into the development of DX12 and they are trying to be as inclusive of all hardware they can, yet don't give it to Linux. I'm sorry... Linux is great and all, but to expect or think M$ should spend all that money and then just give it away for "free" and either: a) do all the hard working making sure it runs on a bunch of different versions of linux or b) have it buggy on Linux because they don't have the resources M$ does to make it as stable as possible?

Yes, Linux gaming could be a huge blessing for PC games as it cuts out the high cost of a windows OS license and also helps to democratize the system, but I think it is still too early to think we're being screwed by stuff not being on linux just so you can save some $$ on the OS.
I'm not getting mad at Microsoft for doing business and I sure as hell don't believe that they should/would offer DX12 for Linux. Instead, I think the gaming industry would be much better served to come up with their own non-proprietary code that would work across all platforms in order to cut Microsoft out of the equation completely. PC hardware capable of decent gaming is expensive enough on it's own to keep large portions of potential clients out of the game (pun intended... ;) ) without adding on an extra $120 for an interface that most people honestly don't need/want.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old March 21, 2014, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL View Post
under no circumstance can AMD claim Mantle prompted a DirectX evolution
For sure no, but you cannot stop comparing how both API are aiming at the same target : easier access to resources and better use of the multi-threading in the CPUs. This is why MS was so coy when they have been asked if Mantle is going to be a problem for them. They already had the answer but didn't want to throw AMD off balance. DX12 will most probably impose itself in front of Mantle (at how slow AMD works, is no wonder) and in plus it will not be bound by any GPU vendor. So I think it just took the wind out of AMD's sails. Nvidia is going to come so strong on this thing and will happily put a ton of effort in driver work and optimization, that AMD will have no choice but to do the same thing. I think Mantle will just fade into oblivion, a good idea, but too little, too late, and too exclusive.
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Old March 22, 2014, 06:18 AM
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One thing Mantle has its not going to a Tablet Os on you just to use it. Can see it now Windows 9 Metro Ui 2.0 more tiles more useless tablet apps that no one will ever use on a Desktop.

Pretty soon well see company's comming just to reverse Engineer windows Os releases to cut 90% bloat outa new releases so ppl can use a desktop without being forced into a Tablet Environment wich isnt meant for Enthusiasts Desktop's. Or subscription based Os.

I just built a Monster Rig for Work and play I hate fact if I want latest features ill be forced to move to a os that could possibly be worse then windows 8. My motherboard may be windows 8 Ready but I wont give up Win7 till I absolutely have to.
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Old March 23, 2014, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draemn View Post
I don't understand how anyone can be mad about what DX12 is aspiring to become. More efficient > hardware independent > more flexible for developers... all of that means we will get better games and there will be more competition in the PC space, which may result in lower costs.

Yes, you can be mad at Microsoft's pricing plans for windows 9 if they make DX12 exclusive, but don't get mad that they invest hundreds of millions (possibly more) into the development of DX12 and they are trying to be as inclusive of all hardware they can, yet don't give it to Linux. I'm sorry... Linux is great and all, but to expect or think M$ should spend all that money and then just give it away for "free" and either: a) do all the hard working making sure it runs on a bunch of different versions of linux or b) have it buggy on Linux because they don't have the resources M$ does to make it as stable as possible?
I have to admit I am all over this. Gsync and Mantle irritate me. Will some companies support both NVIDIA and AMD offerings? Sure, but both of the companies will ensure they get exclusive contracts with studios/games as well. Long dead are the days of 3Dfx having the best solution with no viable competitors. Now there are viable competitors and each camp wants to snare their market share which is not good for gamers who are not married to a camp. This makes me hope DX12 offers great performance so there is a card independent middle ground that does not leave people in the lurch for buying 'X' video card.

Is there a problem with Linux support. Yeah, yeah there is. I personally would prefer to see OpenGL rise again and be a true contender but their listed new updates are not on par with DX12. Maybe one day... Or maybe not.
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