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  #41 (permalink)  
Old March 11, 2014, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by IRQ Conflict View Post
Good. Maybe AMD will limit their warranties to exclude mining. Miners should just use ASICs and piss off! Heh. :)
The solution is to better engineer cards to prevent them from exceeding tolerances. Like processors are. These cards were designed to do more than play conventional games and should properly support those activities.

It can be argued that mining, in practice, is actually an emergent game.

Besides, it's not just mining raising prices. You can also thank inflation, the Canadian dollar, an extremely active and competitive electronics industry fighting for component and production resources, and professional and scientific use of the same products.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old March 12, 2014, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Desiato View Post
The solution is to better engineer cards to prevent them from exceeding tolerances. Like processors are. These cards were designed to do more than play conventional games and should properly support those activities.

It can be argued that mining, in practice, is actually an emergent game.

Besides, it's not just mining raising prices. You can also thank inflation, the Canadian dollar, an extremely active and competitive electronics industry fighting for component and production resources, and professional and scientific use of the same products.
Better engineering cards just means the cards cost more BEFORE the big mark ups. Besides, it's essentially a physical law that when you flip transistors more often and at a higher temperature, they will fail more often than ones used in a normal manner. I don't think any practical amount of engineering for a consumer product will change that. And if they did, that would just mean buying a fast card gets even more expensive.

I really don't think the issue is engineering, AMD could build a better card but that might not be a smart business move. They want price/performance, not luxury.

It's mining raising prices. Mining, and the long drought from TSMC for a new process. Professionals and scientists are usually using proper versions of cards designed for what they need (Tesla, FirePro, etc.) because they are usually under too much legal pressure.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old March 12, 2014, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desiato View Post
The solution is to better engineer cards to prevent them from exceeding tolerances. Like processors are. These cards were designed to do more than play conventional games and should properly support those activities.

It can be argued that mining, in practice, is actually an emergent game.

Besides, it's not just mining raising prices. You can also thank inflation, the Canadian dollar, an extremely active and competitive electronics industry fighting for component and production resources, and professional and scientific use of the same products.
Mining (or folding) 24/7 on a consumer GFX card would be akin to exceeding the duty cycle on a printer designed for home use... quite simply they are designed to withstand normal / moderate stress in cycles over their expected lifespan, not running full throttle without letup.

There's a reason why most user warrantees specify non commercial use, and I'd suggest that a good case could be made by the manufacturer(s) that mining is for commercial purposes. (not so much folks who are folding, even though the usage would be similar).
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old March 12, 2014, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Sushi Warrior View Post
Better engineering cards just means the cards cost more BEFORE the big mark ups.
Nonsense. Both nvidia and AMD have already moved in the direction of improved thermal and voltage management to better ensure thresholds aren't exceeded. No doubt to reduce RMAs. The same answer applies to mining and other OpenCL and CUDA applications; not small print limiting support.

Quote:
It's mining raising prices. Mining, and the long drought from TSMC for a new process. Professionals and scientists are usually using proper versions of cards designed for what they need (Tesla, FirePro, etc.) because they are usually under too much legal pressure.
It's supply and demand. Every product produced in the same facility or using the same components will raise the price of gaming GPUs; especially other GPU products. Mining is surely a factor, but not the only one. The mass production of new consoles using more modern components is probably significantly impacting GPU prices as well.

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Originally Posted by sswilson View Post
Mining (or folding) 24/7 on a consumer GFX card would be akin to exceeding the duty cycle on a printer designed for home use... quite simply they are designed to withstand normal / moderate stress in cycles over their expected lifespan, not running full throttle without letup.
Sorry, that's just an insane analogy. Let's stick to silicon. Remember when a CPU would die if the heat sink fell off? These cards already feature protections to prevent thresholds from being exceeded in other ways. Better management can even be done at a driver level. A harmful usage pattern needs to be detected with the appropriate response.
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Old March 15, 2014, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Desiato View Post
Nonsense. Both nvidia and AMD have already moved in the direction of improved thermal and voltage management to better ensure thresholds aren't exceeded. No doubt to reduce RMAs. The same answer applies to mining and other OpenCL and CUDA applications; not small print limiting support.

It's supply and demand. Every product produced in the same facility or using the same components will raise the price of gaming GPUs; especially other GPU products. Mining is surely a factor, but not the only one. The mass production of new consoles using more modern components is probably significantly impacting GPU prices as well.



Sorry, that's just an insane analogy. Let's stick to silicon. Remember when a CPU would die if the heat sink fell off? These cards already feature protections to prevent thresholds from being exceeded in other ways. Better management can even be done at a driver level. A harmful usage pattern needs to be detected with the appropriate response.
Those new algorithms limit the card to the standards you expect to see for short term periods (ie. intense situations in gaming, etc.), not to standards the card can run at all the time for its lifetime. It's MTBF, essentially. These cards are being run 24/7 under poor conditions, that means they reach their MTBF quicker. You can't really engineer the cards to have a "better" MTBF without sacrificing something else.

Mining is probably the only factor. Silicon wafers aren't really having a "shortage" either, the issue is not that AMD can't get more cards made, it's that they need to order new cards months in advance, and if they order them and then 4 months later mining has died out, they are stuck with excess stock. So they aren't ordering extra cards, because that would be risky and poor business decision making.

It doesn't matter what protection you put on the card, miners will flash different vBIOS' and run custom tools to avoid the limits.
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