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  #41 (permalink)  
Old October 30, 2010, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by r9800pro View Post
I used 768MB GTX460 because that was what I had and I showed you Dirt 2 benchmark he did in the original HD6800 article in which GTX460 768MB was slightly better in average than HD6850 which contradicts with my findings and also with other reviews
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Did you try making the adjustments to force the same config as we use in all of our benchmarks, and chose the exact same settings as we used? Your Guide to the Hardware Canucks GPU Benchmarking Process

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With overclocking, it is always YMMV, a card would not OC to the same frequencies that another card would so overclocking (specially that high) should never be a purchase decision maker
"studies" should be done with constants and overclocking is not constant
Ummmmm....... you did read the title of the article where it said that it was an "overclocking" review right???? We assume that folks who are looking at our reviews are smart enough to realise that overclocking headroom is always going to vary from one piece of hardware to another. As far as the software for the 68XX series is concerned... yes SKYMTL had software which would allow him to OC it and push the GPU core Voltages.... he made mention of it in the article, as well as a disclaimer than the main software he was using is not currently available for public release.

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Using a carefully picked GPU (By EVGA in FTW series) against ordinary GPUs from AMD !
Since we're one of the few websites who didn't use the FTW (or any OC'd card at all) in our main 68XX review I can't see where anybody has a valid complaint that we're attempting the skew the results. The FTW is around the same price, and in all honesty, the OC's SKYMTL came up with were not outside of what folks have been seeing with 460s in general. I'm not sure about the members of the websites you frequent, but our members prefer to have as much information as possible, especially when it comes to competing hardware that's available around the same price point.

Bottom line is, if you don't like the benchmarks you see on a website with clear unbiased testing methodology, you're more than welcome to frequent ones which reflect your own personal bias.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old October 30, 2010, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by r9800pro View Post
Please show me where he addresses my points in the "study"

I used 768MB GTX460 because that was what I had and I showed you Dirt 2 benchmark he did in the original HD6800 article in which GTX460 768MB was slightly better in average than HD6850 which contradicts with my findings and also with other reviews

These points still not answered yet :
Again, your Dirt2 is the demo. His isnt, Sky uses the in-game AND stand-alone benchmark, in addition to changing the ini to make sure no driver 'optimizations' are occurring. Results can vary, maybe the run-through he is using is conforming to average, whereas the stock demo is more AMD friendly? Variances occur in life.

If you doubt the results, you can always download the settings/config/demo from the previous links I showed, and run the test setup yourself to see the results first hand. Isnt clarity amazing? But I guess you just glazed over my post with said information like you did with the entire review(s) and cherry picked your info. How about you stop complaining there is a stacked benchmark and run the tests yourself?

As to the other points you mentioned, you still must not have read the origional or follow-up articles and just looked at the 'pritty pictures'?

Quote:
One of the premier products available from NVIDIA’s board partners is of course the EVGA GTX 460 FTW which is overclocked to a stratospheric 850Mhz core speed. It’s price? $229 USD. This provides a tantalizing opening for customers who are looking at the HD 6870 and are wondering what it lines up to in NVIDIA’s current sable of products.
Your points are moot. Regarding the "YMMV Overclocking". EVGA 460 FTW is a 'guaranteed' clock from EVGA when you buy the card. Hell its even warrantied for 2 years (or lifetime!). The card is also in the same price bracket. Why would you not compare the two?

Edit: Ninja'd by Sky!
Edit2: And Steve?!
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Last edited by Sagath; October 30, 2010 at 08:37 AM.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old October 30, 2010, 10:12 AM
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Re: FTW
When a new generation of chips, from either company, drops I want to see that new chip (6850/6870) compared to a highly binned chip (evga 460 FTW) from the competing company. To my mind the older highly binned chip should be @ it's highest potential(power consumption, clocks). While I expect the newer card to show its infancy, and to allude to its full potential.
And at some point, it will be the other way 'round.
-Chris
P.S. 'hotfixes' shouldn't be part of reviews, nor should Beta drivers. IMO
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old October 30, 2010, 10:16 AM
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interesting comments, to say the least :) and some newbs too!

still, you're saying the hotfixes are just for the benchmarks? maybe there's need for more since it gave you issues.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old October 30, 2010, 11:46 AM
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I've typically used nvidia all the way back to the Riva 128 (albeit with a voodoo) with exception to the terrible FX generation; but the 68x0 gpu's are making a strong case for me to switch.

I'm a little worried about driver quality, especially with CF, if I take the plunge though.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old October 30, 2010, 12:24 PM
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Excellent review SKY. However, I think the limit you imposed for OCing should be YMMV, and not based on core temperatures and fan speed. Some fans at 50% can be relatively quiet while others are just freaken annoying. Take my old X850XT for example. My 9600GT's fan @ 46% under F@H load is nothing compared to the X850XT's 50% fan.

What I'm trying to say is that the noise generated by the fan should be measured in dB instead of doing something like a maximum core temperature of 90C and fan @ 50%.

After reading this article, I still can't choose between a AMD 6850 and NVIDIA GTX 460 768MB/1GB. Thanks SKYMTL! @_@ lol
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old October 30, 2010, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by SKYMTL View Post
I tested those two games with the Hotfix and neither showed any improvements over the WHQL. From my understanding, the AvP improvements are for the stand alone BENCHMARK and were not applied to the game itself. As for Starcraft, as I said; they didn't show any improvement.

Plus the Hotfix introduced some instability when using Crossfire.
Thanks for clarifying that Sky. I was worried the 10.10c hotfix came out after your review.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old October 31, 2010, 02:32 PM
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Default Good Article. Could have been Great.

The way I see it is, you are either an overclocker, or you aren't.
I am.
Thus, I really value reviews that compare overclocked products, to the competition's overclocked products.
This article was really useful in this regard, assuming you are interested in one of the new AMD cards or the impossible to find EVGA FTW 460 card.

Now, I'm personally more interested in the November GPU releases, but was interested in how my current 5850 would compare to these three cards. Unfortunately, even though it is in plentiful supply, and available right in between the 6850 and 6870 prices ($250 at N C I X this week), you didn't include it. But then again, even if you had, you didn't think to overclock the 5870, so I doubt you would have done so with the 5850.

But if you had, that would have made this a GREAT article.

My 5850 at stock voltage runs at 900/1150 (up from 725/1000 stock). I have friends running them much higher than this, so I would assume mine is close to average. The 5850 is a Great overclocker. Anytime you can push a GPU up by 25% you know it is great at OC. (The regular 460 is also a great overclocker.) Much better than the 8% to volt-bumped 13% on the 6870. Yes, stock to stock, the 5850 is beat by the 6870 (yay! I love it when the mid-range cards come out beating the high(er) end previous generation cards), but OC'd, I'm pretty sure that even mine at 900/1150 is going to edge the top oc'd 6870 in your review. That is why this would have been a great comparison, if you'd have included it. Also, obviously, there are a ton more 5850 cards available for sale than the EVGA FTW 460s.

Also, since I mentioned it, using the FTW version from EVGA isn't representative of the majority of the OC'd 460 cards. Before this card was announced (2 days before the AMD cards were!?!) I hadn't heard of anyone hitting 800MHz on their 460 OC. Let alone the 850 that EVGA is getting with their Nvidia hand picked GPUs. Most of the 460 OC'd cards are clocked at 725MHz. The next best (hand picked) is at 810MHz (MSI) also released at the same time as the EVGA FTW cards.

Just double checking while writing this, I see they are both now in-stock. Both around $260Cdn (MSI and EVGA) making them both very competitive to the 6870. Well done Nvidia. I hope you are making a couple bucks on them. We need this GPU competition to continue as long as possible.

Anyway, I doubt you will do it, but it would be Great if you could update the article with OC'd 5850 numbers. As long as the 5850 remains available, it is an excellent 4th option to consider at these price ranges.

Thanks in advance ;)

Edit: my mistake. I see in your July review that the 460 1GB you tested hit 827MHz OC'd at default voltage. At $180 to $220 Cdn for the average (725ish MHz) OC'd cards, they are very competitive with the new AMD cards. None of these would make me want to upgrade obviously, but I love seeing such evenly matched and priced competition between AMD and Nvidia.

Last edited by deeps6x; October 31, 2010 at 02:45 PM.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old October 31, 2010, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by deeps6x View Post
Also, since I mentioned it, using the FTW version from EVGA isn't representative of the majority of the OC'd 460 cards. Before this card was announced (2 days before the AMD cards were!?!) I hadn't heard of anyone hitting 800MHz on their 460 OC. Let alone the 850 that EVGA is getting with their Nvidia hand picked GPUs. Most of the 460 OC'd cards are clocked at 725MHz. The next best (hand picked) is at 810MHz (MSI) also released at the same time as the EVGA FTW cards.
If you ask around here on the forums, I think you'll be hard pressed to find more then 5 people whos gtx460's cant hit 800+. I have two bought a week after release (EVGA #369 and #648), both are over 880mhz on stock voltage. Lowfat has three that on water he can push to nearly 1ghz with the 1.2v mod.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old October 31, 2010, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Sagath View Post
If you ask around here on the forums, I think you'll be hard pressed to find more then 5 people whos gtx460's cant hit 800+. I have two bought a week after release (EVGA #369 and #648), both are over 880mhz on stock voltage. Lowfat has three that on water he can push to nearly 1ghz with the 1.2v mod.

I have a 460 1GB at 850mhz and I didn't try to push it harder yet :P
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