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  #131 (permalink)  
Old October 24, 2010, 09:56 AM
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How many review sites have the means to hold thier ground against all manufacturers these days?
Reviews sites depends on sponsors to pay the bills...and good reviews, produced in time, as close to the NDA lift as possible are ONLY POSSIBLE is you don't p1$$ off the manufacturers...andthat what's count here SITE TRAFFIC...

You can try to be independent as much as you want, there is really so few competitors that it must be really hard not to pick a side...

Intel vs AMD
nVIDIA vs AMD

Not much choice there....

Look at this one from Xbitslabs...it's clearly sponsored by HIS...
Farewell to ATI: Radeon HD 5000 Graphics Card Family Roundup - X-bit labs
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  #132 (permalink)  
Old October 24, 2010, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagath View Post

Now, that being said, using Anandtech and his blog about EVGA/nV, does it really promote any more clarity via what he has done? Your bolded points really make his statement almost ambiguous, dont they? Paraphrased together they basically say "EVGA asked us, we said no, but then we went ahead and did it anyways." This statement doesnt lend much credibility to Anandtech saying that they are impartial and unbiased, at all. It actually totally clouds the situation in my opinion. Just to further muck the issue of what information should be (possibly) kept hidden, and what should be made available; HWC didnt perform overclocking benchmark due to (rightfully so imo) a lack of review time to release. However, this wasnt stated in the review as to why they wernt included. If it had of been made know that the reviewers time was short, this would have just made clarity better.

Honestly, what goes on behind the "curtains" as you mentioned, really isn't the readers business. It will only cause to stir up even more problems. You are delivered a product "a review" and in some cases, the website, provides the ingredients list, and some, as with HWC, even tell you the exact recipe. But there is no reason to show how the cow was slaughtered, the grain harvested and grown and the plastic packaging made.

If readers think that there is no chatter between review websites and manufacturers press/marketing/development teams, they are out to lunch. There are a lot of different things that go into a review that readers have no business demanding to know or need to bother to know.

Regarding the specific non-inclusion of CF and Overclocked benchmarks - most websites, including ourself do multiple takes of a review, focusing specifically on different aspects. Its no conspiracy - its simply how it has always been done with what we have been given.

-----

Regarding the whole Anandtech thing, I think the inclusion of an OC FTW Card is completely okay. In fact (not to go against Skymtl's method for reviews in any way) in SOME respects it is a more appropriate move than comparing just vanilla cards. This depends on how the review is approached and explained however!

If someone wants a new graphics card, and is thinking about spending $250-$260 on a 6870, what other options are there for them?
Well, actually the GTX 460 1GB is NOT direct competition to the 6870, because it is only about $220, a 12% price drop.

However... a GTX 460 1GB OC/FTW at $250-$260 is the direct monetary competition for the HD 6870... so why exactly would you NOT compare the two cards?

It stands to reason, that if you spend less you get less - people are making buying decisions based on reviews. They want to know exactly what they can get for their money. If their money is $250, then you present them with what ever options are available for that budget.



And no it would not be fair to say - well if you include an OC GTX 460, you also need to include an OC HD 6870. No because and OC HD 6870 (from factory) is going to demand a price premium.

If the OC HD 6870 costs $300, then its competition is no longer the GTX 460 OC, it is now directly vying for your dollars with the $300 GTX 470.


All in all, competition is ALL about the money. It has nothing to do with what the manufacturer says it competes against, or what basic card it comes close to. It is 100%, unequivocally, about what YOU can get for the exact same amount of $$$.

Last edited by FiXT; October 24, 2010 at 10:30 AM.
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old October 24, 2010, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by FiXT View Post

It stands to reason, that if you spend less you get less - people are making buying decisions based on reviews. They want to know exactly what they can get for their money. If their money is $250, then you present them with what ever options are available for that budget.
In that case, they need to feature competitively priced overclocked variants in all reviews.....I bet, when the 460 was released, there wasn't a single factory OC 5000 series model in the entire review; but don't take my word for it, since the site is down.
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  #134 (permalink)  
Old October 24, 2010, 10:18 AM
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AnandTech is down, hence why the link doesn't work.

I saw that post, but I was too lazy to read the comments. I read the comments here though and as FixT said, I appreciate what they did. It all comes down to what kind of performance I'll get for the money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by heflys20 View Post
In that case, they need to feature competitively priced overclocked variants in all reviews.....I bet, when the 460 was released, there wasn't a single factory OC 5000 series model in the entire review; but don't take my word for it, since the site is down.
When the GTX 460 was released, was the ATI 5000 series priced accordingly so that overclocked models could compete with a stock GTX 460? Memory tells me no, which is how GTX 460 became the $200 GPU king back then, just like the 8800GT/9800GT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagath View Post
Just to further muck the issue of what information should be (possibly) kept hidden, and what should be made available; HWC didnt perform overclocking benchmark due to (rightfully so imo) a lack of review time to release. However, this wasnt stated in the review as to why they wernt included. If it had of been made know that the reviewers time was short, this would have just made clarity better.
I think SKYMTL could've posted that overclocking numbers would be made available shortly, instead of just posting it here on the forums that it was unavailable due to limited amount of time. Only so many people visit the forums and read through every single post in a thread, right?

However, how long CAN it take to overclock a GPU? I took a couple hours on my 9600GT.
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  #135 (permalink)  
Old October 24, 2010, 10:24 AM
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well, when you have dozens of review sites, look at the majority and see what cards they benched . its cool though to have sites that do oc versions of competitors card vs stock version of new card, gives you a good idea.
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  #136 (permalink)  
Old October 24, 2010, 10:25 AM
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Sorry FiXT, but I respectfully disagree with your position on this. IMO, OC'd cards results have no business being on the standard run of benchmark charts for a stock card, most especially if there aren't any OC results available for that stock card. That's what we've got older reviews for.... folks can look at the numbers for a stock 460 against the stock review card(s), and if they wish, they can then go to look at the results for the OC'd 460 versions to make a comparison. If there is a comparison to be made on the $/bang for an OC'd version of a different card, that can be mentioned in the conclusion to point folks in the right direction.

edit: And no... the site doesn't appear to be down. I'm browsing through the new "merged" thread on their forums right now.

edit#2: Ok, looks like the main page is down, but the forums are still up.
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  #137 (permalink)  
Old October 24, 2010, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Honestly, what goes on behind the "curtains" as you mentioned, really isn't the readers business.
FIXT, I respect your point of view, but what goes on behind the curtain is what is making us buying the hardware they are trying to "trick" the consumer and TURN THE TIDE...So if a manufacturer tries to "influence the poll" lol just like at the elections, the end result is MORE sales for that manufacturer...

They don't care as which card is the fastest/best, they care about what US, the readers/consumers THINK which card is the fastest/best...

nVIDIA is trying to do damage control, to save their latest card out (460), which is a success, to prevent the sales from being cannibalized by HD68**...

nVIDIA tried hard to get back on track after FERMI 480/470/465 low sales (heat power issues) they have a winner in the 460-series, but AMD came in fast with HD68**...too fast for nVIDIA's shareholders...
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  #138 (permalink)  
Old October 24, 2010, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geokilla View Post

When the GTX 460 was released, was the ATI 5000 series priced accordingly so that overclocked models could compete with a stock GTX 460? Memory tells me no, which is how GTX 460 became the $200 GPU king back then, just like the 8800GT/9800GT.
Huh? if I recall, I was seeing OC 5830 models for $240-270 slightly before the 460 1gb was released.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...on,2646-4.html

The 5770 was retailing for $155 (USD) around the same time, so OC models couldn't have been much more expensive:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...on,2646-3.html

The GTX 460 retailed for $230-260.....It was estimated that an overclocked 5830 could surpass a 5850 at one time.
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  #139 (permalink)  
Old October 24, 2010, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiXT View Post
Regarding the whole Anandtech thing, I think the inclusion of an OC FTW Card is completely okay. In fact (not to go against Skymtl's method for reviews in any way) in SOME respects it is a more appropriate move than comparing just vanilla cards. This depends on how the review is approached and explained however!

If someone wants a new graphics card, and is thinking about spending $250-$260 on a 6870, what other options are there for them?
Well, actually the GTX 460 1GB is NOT direct competition to the 6870, because it is only about $220, a 12% price drop.

However... a GTX 460 1GB OC/FTW at $250-$260 is the direct monetary competition for the HD 6870... so why exactly would you NOT compare the two cards?

It stands to reason, that if you spend less you get less - people are making buying decisions based on reviews. They want to know exactly what they can get for their money. If their money is $250, then you present them with what ever options are available for that budget.

And no it would not be fair to say - well if you include an OC GTX 460, you also need to include an OC HD 6870. No because and OC HD 6870 (from factory) is going to demand a price premium.

If the OC HD 6870 costs $300, then its competition is no longer the GTX 460 OC, it is now directly vying for your dollars with the $300 GTX 470.
Yep I have no problems including an off the shelf overclocked card in a review; as long as its clearly stated in the review, and is in the same price range.

If someone came in here and said 'I want to buy this $200 card, but am willing to spend up to $225' we would be quick to mention a factory OC card if the performance gains are worth it. (I would avoid recommending OCing to the layman though, as luck would then have to be considered...it would have to be factory OC for most folks)

I think this will come in to play now especially since nVidia has allowed board makers to produce their own board designs, with good OC from the factory under warranty.
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  #140 (permalink)  
Old October 24, 2010, 10:50 AM
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In fact, the FTW Gtx 460 is $30 more on Newegg.ca than the 6870.

Newegg.ca - gtx 460 FTW

Newegg.ca - 6870
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