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  #351 (permalink)  
Old March 28, 2010, 06:59 PM
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Traitor and rjbarker, that's enough. No more personal attacks. Discuss the review, discuss the cards, maybe step away from the keyboard for a few minutes.
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  #352 (permalink)  
Old March 28, 2010, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Canzara View Post
could of, should of, would of...but alas...it didn't
to top it off, if DX 11 requires all these special tweaks, then all these benches mean nothing to the average joe cause they don't know how to do them.
Therefore, HardOCP is more accurate for most by what your saying here.
Wrong unfortunately.

DiRT 2 only required the tweak pre patch v1.1. Post patch 1.1 it wasn't needed anymore.

From the performance numbers I am seeing in the reviews along with the screenshots with the graphical options, every site I am talking about (some did it right) was using a pre-patch 1.1 game. That in itself is a problem... basically, you can see the differences right off the bat:

Patch 1.1 brought:

- Proper context switching between DX9 & DX11 APIs
- Additional graphics options
- Now allows the DX11 path to perform faster than DX9


You can spot reviews which aren't using the patch because performance in their Dirt 2 benchmarks is quite low compared to the others. There was also an issue of serious CPU bottlenecking at 1920 and 1680 that was eliminated with the patch's proper implementation of multi core CPUs.

I personally saw a 15-20% increase in DX11 performance after applying the patch.


Full patch notes: 01/03 - DiRT 2 PC Patch Now Out! - Codemasters Forums
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  #353 (permalink)  
Old March 28, 2010, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by traitoR View Post
I'm not a reviewer, i'm a consumer, i have my own criteria for success, pretty sure i could write a review if i was so inclined, it's not rocket science to run some benchmarks, seriously the hero worshipping is cute here, but he's not some super being, LOL. I'm 40 years old and have been a computer enthusiast probably longer than you have been alive.

You might be surprised how much one can overlook and how much one can tweak or add to provide excellence to reviews like these that require testing, careful controls and limited variables. There's more involved than running benchmarks. Maybe since most of us didn't go into detailed critique when telling SKY whether he did a good job or not, we could have sounded sycophantic but I'm sure we all know he's human, and not some kind of hero for writing these things up, but I truly respect the attention to detail he has in studying the nuances of both hardware and software- after all, benchmark scores aren't too truly helpful without knowing which areas of a video card's performances it taxes the most, which it doesn't test heavily, which of those areas most apply to what the layman will run, how it will scale, etc.

I'm pretty sure you have more experience with computers than I do but still, I think you might be assuming too much about your knowledge when it comes to testing. Just a comment from a younger person; I often listen to counsel from people younger than me too, just because the longer a person lives the more we tend to get jaded and inflexible in our thinking. No disrespect meant at all, and apologies if I did offend you.
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  #354 (permalink)  
Old March 28, 2010, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Helix View Post
Have to remember though that the 5870's drivers have had 6 months to mature, while the nvidia drivers haven't. Effectively leading to more free performance boosts in the future.
Well, I have been skeptical that driver updates will materially improve performance. Simply b/c of all the hardware problems and delays, etc., NV seems to have had plenty of time to optimize the drivers for these new cards. I can't imagine that they did not take full advantage of this delay period to optimize their drivers. Also, maybe someone has a constructive opinion on just how much driver updates could improve heat, noise, power draw?

Anyone know what this rumored ATI Northern Islands arch is about?

I have this 5870 overvolted and Oc'd to the same specs as here: ASUS EAH5870 Voltage Tweak Video Card - EAH5870 Overclocking - Legit Reviews It is stable. Anyone have any thoughts on how that would compare with the 480 results? Assuming the projected (up to) 20% performance increase is actually true? Maybe some comparisons down the road?
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  #355 (permalink)  
Old March 28, 2010, 07:21 PM
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wembler, you should be able to bench your card at stock and at your overclock, and extrapolate your results from there. Try the Unigine 2.0 benchmark, it's free.
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  #356 (permalink)  
Old March 28, 2010, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bovine.baron View Post
You might be surprised how much one can overlook and how much one can tweak or add to provide excellence to reviews like these that require testing, careful controls and limited variables. There's more involved than running benchmarks. Maybe since most of us didn't go into detailed critique when telling SKY whether he did a good job or not, we could have sounded sycophantic but I'm sure we all know he's human, and not some kind of hero for writing these things up, but I truly respect the attention to detail he has in studying the nuances of both hardware and software- after all, benchmark scores aren't too truly helpful without knowing which areas of a video card's performances it taxes the most, which it doesn't test heavily, which of those areas most apply to what the layman will run, how it will scale, etc.

I'm pretty sure you have more experience with computers than I do but still, I think you might be assuming too much about your knowledge when it comes to testing. Just a comment from a younger person; I often listen to counsel from people younger than me too, just because the longer a person lives the more we tend to get jaded and inflexible in our thinking. No disrespect meant at all, and apologies if I did offend you.

No offence at all, thanks for the grounded reply, i do tend to shy away from change so you are right there, at no time did i say he didn't do an adequate job, i simply said he seemed a bit forgiving of the negatives in light of the incremental performance increase, i offered up what i thought were it's negatives, obviously this did'nt go over so well with the crowd here. Why that is is anybodies guess.
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  #357 (permalink)  
Old March 28, 2010, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SugarJ View Post
wembler, you should be able to bench your card at stock and at your overclock, and extrapolate your results from there. Try the Unigine 2.0 benchmark, it's free.
Thanks - good idea! Will give it a try. HWC often does comparisons of manufacturer releases (re the overvoltable ASUS 5870) against competitive cards as they are released. I enjoy those types of reviews and look forward to them re the 480 as cards are released over the next couple of months.
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  #358 (permalink)  
Old March 28, 2010, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by SKYMTL View Post
Wrong unfortunately.

DiRT 2 only required the tweak pre patch v1.1. Post patch 1.1 it wasn't needed anymore.

From the performance numbers I am seeing in the reviews along with the screenshots with the graphical options, every site I am talking about (some did it right) was using a pre-patch 1.1 game. That in itself is a problem... basically, you can see the differences right off the bat:

Patch 1.1 brought:

- Proper context switching between DX9 & DX11 APIs
- Additional graphics options
- Now allows the DX11 path to perform faster than DX9


You can spot reviews which aren't using the patch because performance in their Dirt 2 benchmarks is quite low compared to the others. There was also an issue of serious CPU bottlenecking at 1920 and 1680 that was eliminated with the patch's proper implementation of multi core CPUs.

I personally saw a 15-20% increase in DX11 performance after applying the patch.


Full patch notes: 01/03 - DiRT 2 PC Patch Now Out! - Codemasters Forums
Maybe the difference between HardOCP and your results for DiRT 2 (both using patch 1.1) comes down simply to choosing a different level. HardOCP is using the Battersee Bridge level it isn't mentioned what level was chosen for the HWC review. That is the only thing I can see that would cause such a wide difference in results.
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  #359 (permalink)  
Old March 28, 2010, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by traitoR View Post
No offence at all, thanks for the grounded reply, i do tend to shy away from change so you are right there, at no time did i say he didn't do an adequate job, i simply said he seemed a bit forgiving of the negatives in light of the incremental performance increase, i offered up what i thought were it's negatives, obviously this did'nt go over so well with the crowd here. Why that is is anybodies guess.
Oh alright. Yeah, I didn't find it biased but I'm more optimistic than most just because the results are competitive on a rough architecture and unrefined drivers. True though, SKY might want to edit in a later response on why he's forgiving on the card's faults or why he feels he's not being too forgiving.
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  #360 (permalink)  
Old March 28, 2010, 08:20 PM
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Kinda lame that you can't read a thread about GPUs or CPUs without filtering out the fanboi battles. I have no problem with comparisons between Nvidia/AMD but it would be real nice to see more posts relating to what people know about the subject of the review or about the review itself. I tried to add what I thought an interesting link to a PCIe lane test with GTX480 (more or less confirming what we knew from 200 series) but I doubt anyone saw it with the pissing contest going on. I wonder how many constructive posts I missed trying to scan past the chaff. Sad that it might be helpful to create 2 threads for reviews - one for questions/comments related to the review and another 'free-for-all' type thread where everyone can have it out.

1) Fermi is not fail. (It may however be a disappointment to those that swallowed all the pre launch hype - shoulda known better I guess).

2) If someone knowingly wishes to be an early adopter or to pre-order it even though it appears the initial release is perhaps a little crippled (480 shaders/slow GDDR) than that is their right. Without early adopters there would be no revisions.

3) If someone plans to wait until the refresh (GTX485 or w/e) than good for you.

4) If someone plans to wait for AMD's response good for you.

FWIW I don't really care whether my next card is AMD or Nvidia and neither should anyone else. Everyone should be buying the card that fits their budget and requirements the best.




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Sky:
1. Mysterious
2. Never seen in person
3. Shows up at the most optimal times
4. Was once seen in a one piece liotard type suit with a mask
SKYMTL: I suggest you quickly deny the unitard statement before it becomes fact.

Last edited by J_M; March 28, 2010 at 08:27 PM.
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