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Old November 19, 2009, 11:32 PM
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Default Disappointing XFX RMA experience

I feel like I have been ignored and brushed aside by XFX support. Since it's quite long, I will provide my support message history in code tags below.

Here's the TLDR version:

I hold the opinion that the 8800 ultra provides superior performance to the GTS 250 at 1920x1200 with AA/AF enabled. This is due to the higher memory bandwidth and higher pixel fill rate of the ultra: Video Card Comparison - GPUReview.com

This opinion is also supported with benchmarks:

Sum of fps benchmarks at 1920x1200 with 4AA + high quality:
8800 ultra = 252.60
GTS 250 1GB = 247.70
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/gaming-graphics-charts-2009/Sum-of-FPS-Benchmarks-1920x1200,1199.html

When AA is increased further, so is the difference. Sum of fps benchmarks at 1920x1200 with 8AA + high quality:
8800 ultra = 121.70
GTS 250 1GB = 110.30
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/gaming-graphics-charts-2009/Sum-of-FPS-Benchmarks-1920x1200,1200.html

Looking at specific games (that I care about and play) instead of an average of multiple games, we see:
Fallout 3 at 1920x1200 8 AA 15AF very high quality:
8800 ultra = 44.90
GTS 250 1GB = 38.10 FPS
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/gaming-graphics-charts-2009/Fallout-3,1173.html

Left for dead at 1920x1200 8AA 16AF very high quality:
8800 ultra = 48.70
GTS 250 1GB = 43.80
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/gaming-graphics-charts-2009/Left4Dead,1184.html

Strictly speaking, if a 8800 ultra replacement was required to be of equal or better performance, would the GTS 250 1GB suffice? Based on these benchmarks, and based on the superior memory bandwidth & pixel fill rates of the ultra, I believe that a GTX 260 would be required to meet the "equal or better" performance standard.

What do you think?

EVGA has been replacing RMA'd 8800 ultras with GTX 260s (i.e. RMA'd 8800 Ultra SSC and received GTX 260 back?? - nV News Forums).

XFX, however, is apparently replacing them with GTS 250s. Unless my RMA experience has been in error and will be corrected, I'm not sure how I could ever justify buying from XFX over EVGA again.

My disappointing XFX RMA experience is as follows:

Code:
Ticket ID #: 259416
[ 11/4/2009 2:41:22 PM] 
I have two 8800 ultras, an EVGA and a XFX, both purchased at the same time. Using a single card in the 
same PCI-E slot with the same power cables (two 6 pins) and monitor: The EVGA 8800 ultra works (PC 
loads fine, 3D mark works) The XFX 8800 ultra no longer works: the desktop loads with a uniform pattern 
of red flickering dots (and random horizontal lines). The PC sometimes blue screens (display driver 
stops responding). 3D mark does not work. I believe I need warranty service on the XFX 8800 ultra. 
Please help me through this process. 
[ 11/4/2009 3:58:54 PM] 
In addition to artifacts/errors with 3dmark (and the desktop), the XFX 8800 ultra results in artifacts 
+ freezes [display driver has stopped responding and has recovered (or blue screen if it doesnt 
recover)] when running any game I have tested: torchlight, fallout 3, D+D online, bioshock. However, 
media files (dvd`s, .flvs) will work. I can also dual boot to XP 64, and the system experiences 
similar errors with the XFX card here. I`m using display driver: 6.14.0011.7516 on the XP 64 boot, 
and display driver: 7.15.0011.8208 on the vista 64 boot. No software or hardware changes have been 
made recenctly - the XFX card used to work with this system. 
[ 11/4/2009 4:04:03 PM] 
PS. The red flickering dots and horizontal lines did not appear on my desktop during the last reboot 
I did just now, but 3dmark still failed during the first test (display driver stopped responding)
 
[MARK_C 11/4/2009 4:54:37 PM] 
Hello XXXXXXX, I have authorized your RMA (Return Merchandise Authorization) so that you can 
send your XFX product in to get it serviced. Anything that is returned to you will go out signature 
required. The return shipping address being used is the address in your online profile: XXXXXXXXXX.  
If for some reason you need to use a different return shipping address or telephone number 
than please notify us immediately at XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Include your ticket number as the subject line. Changing the address in your online profile will NOT 
update the return address on the RMA. Some RMAs will require a telephone number. Not supplying 
one may slow down the process. If your exact part number is no longer available, XFX will replace 
with an alternate part based on product performance. To help us select an alternate replacement 
part, please provide details for any required product features such as dual DVI, SLI, Etc. Because 
you are located outside of the U.S.A., additional taxes may be imposed on the return shipment 
by your government. We provide proper documentation and label the package to the best of our 
ability to avoid this but these fees are completely at the discretion of the local government. 
You will be liable for these fees if they occur. Your RMA number is XCR34665. Copy and paste the 
following link into your browser, 
ftp://xfxsupport.com/public/other/PCA_RMA_TC.pdf This PDF is the RMA agreement 
and paperwork. It contains all the RMA terms and conditions; please fill it out, sign it, and include 
it with your RMA. If you wish to waive the signature requirement on return shipments from XFX please 
obtain the waiver form here: ftp://xfxsupport.com/public/other/signaturewaiver.pdf
Thank you, Mark Please note: Adobe Acrobat Reader is required to view the PDF documents 
listed above. Please download and install the latest version of Acrobat Reader from 
Adobe - Adobe Reader download - All versions before attempting to open the forms. 
 
[ 11/4/2009 5:11:30 PM] 
Thanks Mark. I see that I must pay for both the shipping of the original product and of the
repaired/replaced card. Do you have a rough estimate for me of the shipping rate I should expect 
for the repaired/replacement card? 
 
[BRIAN 11/5/2009 8:52:24 PM] 
Hi, we`ll take care of the shipping back to you. The only cost to you will be shipping to us. 
However, you may get some duty charges on the way back, but that will be up to your local 
government. We put all of the necessary paperwork on the package before it ships out to try to 
eliminate or reduce the duty charges. However, we cannot control whether or not the government 
will charge you. We`ll be on the lookout for the card. Thanks, Brian. 
 
[ 11/6/2009 12:15:33 AM] 
Thanks! The card has been shipped via UPS. Tracking number: XXXXXXXXXXXXX. The expected 
delivery date is Nov 12. 
 
[BRIAN 11/6/2009 11:55:43 PM] 
We`ll be on the lookout for it. Thanks, brian. 
[MICHAELC 11/13/2009 7:22:17 PM] 
We have received your recent returns ref: XCR34665. Your returns will be passed to the RMA 
department for testing and diagnosis. We will notify you on completion. Thank You. XFX Support Team 
 
[ 11/13/2009 7:38:06 PM] 
You have received the card. Let me know if there`s anything else you need from me! Thanks 
for the great support so far. PS. I have researched some benchmarks: sum of FPS benchmarks 
1920x1200 at 4AA and 8AA (toms hardware): 
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/gaming-graphics-cards-charts-2009-high-quality/Sum-of-FPS-Benchmarks-1920x1200,1473.html 
If you are sending me a replacement card (of equivalent or better performance), the GTX 260 
(or better) seems the minimum fit. A GTS 250 1GB is not sufficient at 1920x1200 with high 
quality + AA/AF enabled (it is lower performance than the 8800 ultra, not equivalent or better). 
Also, a google search reveals that RMAd 8800 ultras from EVGA have been replaced by GTX 260s 
(RMA'd 8800 Ultra SSC and received GTX 260 back?? - nV News Forums). I`m just trying to prevent 
any disappointment from my end. I would be sad to lose any game performance after buying 
such an expensive card. Maybe I`m paranoid, this is my first ever RMA. :) 
 
[MICHAELC_W 11/13/2009 9:58:29 PM] 
Hi XXXXXXX; we shouldn`t need anything from you at this point, once we have any results 
from testing your card this ticket will be updated automatically. If we have no more stock of this 
card and yours needs to be replaced, the replacement likely will be something a bit lower than 
the GTX series but that won`t be determined unless we are out of equivalent performing 8800 
series cards. Thanks, Michael 
 
[ 11/13/2009 11:23:34 PM] 
I hope not! The 8800 ultra is the highest performing 8800 series card (you have a copy of my 
invoice, I payed $748.88 for it). If it is replaced with a different nvidia card, the minimum replacement 
that will not result in a performance loss at my default resolution and settings is the GTX 260. If 
I am sent a GTS 250 1 GB then I will lose performance in many many games [see sum of fps 
benchmarks, 121.70 goes to 110.30: 
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/gaming-graphics-cards-charts-2009-high-quality/Sum-of-FPS-Benchmarks-1920x1200,1538.html]. 
Considering at the time of this message that a xfx gts 250 1GB is $186.73 canadian (from NCIX) 
and a xfx gtx 260 is $194.99 canadian (from NCIX), I really hope you guys spend the extra $8.26 to 
give me a card that is not lower performance than the 8800 ultra at my settings. Thanks! 
[ 11/13/2009 11:28:05 PM] 
Heck you can even bill me the $8.26 canadian! I don`t want to lose performance. Prices are here: 
NCIX.com - Canada's Premier Computer Store - Great Technology, Service and Selection. 
and here: NCIX.com - Canada's Premier Computer Store - Great Technology, Service and Selection. 
 
[THOMAS_C 11/13/2009 11:43:40 PM] 
Your recent returns ref: XCR34665 has recently completed the testing process with the following 
status: {I5F010867 = FAULTY}. A technician will be in contact shortly to discuss completion 
of this return. If you have any queries regarding this test result - please send a message to the 
support team. Thank You. XFX Support Team 
 
[ 11/14/2009 6:38:54 AM] 
Thanks Thomas! Please let me know if it is being repaired or replaced. If it is being replaced 
please don`t ship me anything until we discuss the replacement and any options available to me. 
 
[MARK_C 11/16/2009 9:30:01 PM] 
Hello XXXXXXXXX, The don`t call. They will be replacing the card and will update you with tracking 
when the replacement ships. Thank you. Mark 
 
[ 11/16/2009 9:52:13 PM] 
Hi Mark. I hope my message history in this support ticket has been read and acknowledged. 
I want to ensure that I am sent an appropriate replacement before it ships. I will be very disappointed 
in XFX if I find I am shipped an inferior card after making my thoughts clear and providing credible 
links to benchmarks. If your RMA technicians disagree with my assessment, then my cusomer 
service experience would be improved if they discussed the specifics with me before shipment. 
I`d love to give you guys the benefit of the doubt but I`m a pessimist. :). Also, if there are any 
options available to me besides replacement (i.e. refund or partial refund, step-up options, etc) I 
would like to hear about them. 
 
[JASONN 11/16/2009 11:49:42 PM] 
We have despatched your recent returns ref: XCR34665 via
www.fedex.com with tracking reference: XXXXXXXXX.
If you have any queries regarding this action - please send a message to the support team. 
Thank You. XFX Support Team 
 
[ 11/17/2009 12:33:09 AM] 
Can a supervisor please review this support ticket message history. I feel my concerns since 
11/13/2009 7:38:06 PM have been ignored, as the replacement has apparently already been 
shipped. Maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel. The RMA form terms + conditions explicitly 
state: If the original product purchased is no longer available or currently out of stock, XFX may 
send a replacement of equal or better performance. I hope the card that I recieve is truly of equal 
or better performance. But if it is a 250 GTS 1 GB it will be worse at my settings (256 memory 
interface bus + 2200 mhz clock for the 250, vs 384 + 2160 for the ultra; see the linked benchmarks). 
We`ll see. If you guys send me an inferior card to save $8.26 when I was even willing to pay $8.26, 
I`ll be pasting a copy of this support history everywhere. But if I`m actually sent a gtx 260, I`ll chalk 
this up as me just being paranoid and owe ya`ll hugs + kisses (and public praise). 
 
[WILLIAM 11/18/2009 12:19:07 AM] 
We have now completed your recent returns ref: XCR34665. If you have any queries regarding 
this action - please send a message to the support team. Thank You. XFX Support Team 
 
[ 11/18/2009 3:45:22 AM] 
I have the following 8 queries: (1) Has this support ticket history been read by a supervisor? 
(2) Why was a replacement dispatched on 11/16 when on 11/14 (and again on 11/16) I asked 
for nothing to be shipped until we discussed the replacement and any options available to me? 
(3) Were there any options available to me? i.e. refund or partial refund instead of replacement, 
step-up options, etc? (4) What card am I going to get in the mail? (5) What is the warranty 
on the replacement card? (6) If I receive something that is lower performance at my default resolution 
(1920x1200) with AA/AF enabled than a 8800 ultra in the mail, do you think I will ever buy anything 
(let alone another $748.88 graphics card) from XFX again at any point in my lifetime, especially 
considering there was only a $8.26 CAD difference (that I was even willing to pay) between 
the GTS 250 1GB and the GTX 260? (7) Is there a support team member at XFX who is willing 
to address my concerns/questions or will I get another automated and/or insubstantial response? 
(8) If I am sent a GTX 260 in the mail, how much egg will be on my face? 
 
[DANIEL_E 11/19/2009 5:32:59 PM] 
Hi, those responses were automated responses from our system. If the same model card 
is not in stock a replacement of equal or better performance will be used as the replacement. 
This is noted on the rma agreement you had to read through to get our address to send the card 
into us. We do not have any sort of paid upgrade options or any sort of refund/credit options 
available. The replacement card will pick up the warranty of the original card. The card has been 
replaced with a gts 250 which is equal in performance to the 8800 ultra. Daniel 
 
[ 11/19/2009 7:47:13 PM] 
The gts 250 is NOT equal in performance to the 8800 ultra. I have provided links to benchmarks 
already. The sum of fps benchmarks at 1920x1200 with 4AA + high quality: the 8800 ultra is 252.60 
and the GTS 250 1GB is 247.70: 
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/gaming-graphics-charts-2009/Sum-of-FPS-Benchmarks-1920x1200,1199.html 
When AA is increased further, so is the difference. The sum of fps benchmarks at 1920x1200 
with 8AA + high quality: the 8800 ultra is 121.70 and the GTS 250 is 110.30: 
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/gaming-graphics-charts-2009/Sum-of-FPS-Benchmarks-1920x1200,1200.html. 
Looking at specific games that I play instead of an average of all games, we see for fallout 3 at 
1920x1200 8 AA 15AF very high quality, that the 8800 ultra is 44.90 FPS and the GTS 250 1GB is 38.10 FPS: 
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/gaming-graphics-charts-2009/Fallout-3,1173.html. 
Looking at left for dead 1920x1200 8AA 16AF very high quality: the 8800 ultra is 48.70 and the gts 250 1 gb is 43.80: 
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/gaming-graphics-charts-2009/Left4Dead,1184.html. 
Do I need to keep providing links? I make the claim that the replacement you provided is NOT 
of equal or better performance, that the replacement you sent is in breach of your "equal or better 
performance" RMA policy, and I provide credible links to performance tests. How do you counter? 
I payed $748.88 for an enthusiast graphics card. I have 8 GB dd2-800 ram, a 1000W PSU, 
Q6600@3.2 Ghz, and a second 8800 ultra from EVGA. If the EVGA 8800 ultra broke on me, 
they would replace it with a 260 GTX because they know that the 250 1 GB is not equal or better 
performance; I provide an example of EVGA doing this replacement here: 
RMA'd 8800 Ultra SSC and received GTX 260 back?? - nV News Forums. 
My monitor is an ultrasharp dell 2407wfp 24", with native resolution of 1920x1200. With AA/AF 
enabled at this resolution, the gts 250 is NOT equal in performance to the 8800 ultra. In addition 
to looking at benchmarks, the reason that the gts 250 1GB is NOT equal in performance to 
the 8800 ultra can be found by looking at the technical specs of each card: The GTS 250 has 
a 256 bit memory interface bus and a 2200 mhz clock. The 8800 ultra has a 384 bit memory 
interface bus and a 2160 mhz clock. The superior memory bandwidth of the 8800 ultra means 
that it has better performance than the GTS 250 when memory bandwidth becomes the bottleneck 
(i.e. 1920x1200 resolution, with AA/AF enabled). I made these concerns very clear throughout 
this RMA process already. I even wrote it in explicitly on the physical RMA form that I shipped 
to you with the card. I am severely not satisfied with XFX right now. What can your company 
do to make things right?
I will update any further developments in this thread. I'm totally bummed right now. Not only am I losing my potential 2x8800 ultra SLI performance, but I'm getting a card that is demonstrably inferior at my native resolution with high settings & AA/AF.
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Old November 20, 2009, 12:22 AM
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I would phone them.
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Old November 20, 2009, 02:01 AM
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I would actually read the quoted text but it's too small..... fix it and I'll read it
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Old November 20, 2009, 02:05 AM
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You signing up and then posting this to every forum to ever exist? Spam much? I've seen your post about 50 billion kazillion times now.
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Old November 20, 2009, 05:43 AM
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So to replace a X years old video card they are giving you a brand new one that's within 10% of the specs of the original one...

Not saying they are right or wrong, company X maybe doing better to some of their customers but it's not like they are denying your RMA to start with...
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Old November 20, 2009, 06:54 AM
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I tend to agree with Vlhad on this one *forum spam or not*. This, in my mind would be the equivalent of you having a problem with your 2006 Chevy Corvette that requires the vehicle to be repalced by the insurance agency and so they do, but they replace it with a brand new, 2010, Chevy Cobalt.

I would probably try phoning them and stay on them a bit, all the while keeping a polite tone. You may be able to sway them if you speak to the right people.

Good luck!
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Old November 20, 2009, 06:58 AM
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The insurance company is only going to give you what the car was currently worth, not what it was worth when you bought it.

I'd be happy to get rid of the G80 core for a G92B
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Old November 20, 2009, 07:07 AM
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You may as well overclock it. It has quite a bit of headroom and XFX does allow overclocking. I never had a problem with them.
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Old November 20, 2009, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyllz View Post
So to replace a X years old video card they are giving you a brand new one that's within 10% of the specs of the original one...

Not saying they are right or wrong, company X maybe doing better to some of their customers but it's not like they are denying your RMA to start with...
If the XFX RMA policy was written and advertised as: lifetime warranty, repair or replacement using the most equivalent card, sure. Because that would leave room for the replacement to be slightly lower performing. But when they state: lifetime warranty, repair or replacement with equal or better performance, then they need to be called out when they send something 10% lower in performance.

A 10% difference in performance is what separated the 8800 ultra and the 8800 GTX at release. And there was a $200-$399 difference in price between these two cards at release because of that 10% difference.

[some old prices are in this review: http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.ph...1&limitstart=2]

[some old benchmarks are in this review:
Tech ARP - NVIDIA GeForce 8800 Ultra Graphics Card Review Rev. 1.1
"the GeForce 8800 Ultra registered a 7.5% gain in frame rate over the GTX. This increased to 10% at 4x AA and 8xQ AA. The greatest amount of improvement was at 16xQ AA, where it was 12.6% faster than the GeForce 8800 GTX."]

If I had RMA'd a 8800 GTX and they gave me a GTS 250 1GB, I would be fine with it. But I'm RMAing a 8800 Ultra, I deserve to keep that 7.5-12.6% performance gain with AA.

In my support ticket history, I was asking them to spend an extra $8.26 to give me the GTX 260.
[price of the XFX GTX 260 core 216 was $194.99 from NCIX, and the XFX GTS 250 1GB was $186.73 from NCIX (NCIX is where I bought the ultra, so I found it fair to use prices from there)]. I even wrote to XFX that I would pay the $8.26 Canadian! (note: the links to the products from NCIX in the support message history may not work anymore; their sales change week by week. I think this week it is the EVGA GTX 260 core 216 that is on sale at $195.99 NCIX.com - Buy EVGA E-GEFORCE GTX 260 Core 216 55NM 576MHZ 896MB 1.998GHZ GDDR3 PCI-E 2XDVI-I HDTV Out Video Card - 896-P3-1255-AR In Canada.; when I wrote the response it was the XFX on sale)

Anyway, it was just $8.26 and they still shipped me the GTS 250! (this makes baby jesus cry)

XFX's current RMA replacement for a 8800 GTX is the GTS 250 1GB. Couldn't they spend a little bit more to let someone who payed a $200-$399 premium for a minor performance boost, actually keep that minor performance boost, and keep a customer crazy enough to actually buy ultra series enthusiast cards in the process? Especially considering their main competitor, EVGA, is replacing ultras with 260s.

I don't understand the logic. ><

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perineum View Post
I would actually read the quoted text but it's too small..... fix it and I'll read it
Yeah, I had issues getting word wrap to work with the [code] tags. It was giving huge horizontal scroll bars. So I just brute forced it and manually went through each line pressing enter. Changing text size now would spoil that formatting - I'd have improper line breaks all over the place. You can try copy/pasting it into word if you're really curious!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly View Post
You signing up and then posting this to every forum to ever exist? Spam much? I've seen your post about 50 billion kazillion times now.
I've only used 3 forums so far to discuss my specific RMA details (and 2 other forums to discuss 8800 ultra vs 250 GTS performance). Got any links to some other good forums for me?
*hugs*

A few forums have XFX support presence. Maybe someone, somewhere, will make things right.
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Old November 20, 2009, 08:44 AM
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I still think it's overall fair to have simply gotten a replacement card that runs cooler and uses less power than the existing card, and still be within 10% performance margin of the old.

To me the Ultra is still just a glorified 8800GTX that has its clocks pushed higher. A GTS250 should have ample OC headroom for you to do that.
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