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  #41 (permalink)  
Old December 1, 2008, 06:04 PM
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Hello all , first of all excuse my english , it's not my native language.I was browsing the net for some info to hack the gigabyte gamer hud for more voltage and i stumbled upon this forum , what shocked me was how misinformed people are here thinking that 9800GTX+ is a better card than a 4850.
If we where talking about a reference 4850 maybe 9800gtx+ was a bit ahead but when Nvidia pimped they'r 9800gtx with better clocks it's only fair ATI did that too and when there are so many choices out there of a great 4850 with zalman coolers , big silent 2-4 pipes cooled cards and revised PSB's with 4-5 phase power supply and quality components there's little Nvidia can squeze out of a 55nm GPU to defeat it.
Simply put a gigabyte with zalman that comes at 700 gpu equales a 9800GTX+ and a gainward golden sample with 700 gpu and 2200 blows it away but the story doesn't end here , if you overclock one of these premium cards ( that are very cheap ) you get in the range of 750-800 for the GPU and this just blows away any 9800GTX+ stock or overcloked.
I know what i'm talking about because i have a 4850 in my computer and the days of hot cards and poor overclock on this 4850's are over when you get a premium card with changed PCB.
A small overclock doesn't get the 4850 to far from 9800GTX+ but considering it comes at 625 gpu and 1986 memory you can imagine the results of a 700 GPu and a 2300 memory can do and to top it of when you get a gigabyte wich comes pretty well built 100% all of them passive cooled or zalman cooled they get to 750 GPU guaranteed and at this speed it beats any 9800GTX+ overclocked to 840-850 gpu.
Now it depends what games there are used but most of them like crysis , crysis warhead , farcry2 , cod 4 , devil may cry 4 ...etc. 4850 beats the Nvidia card.
I'm very curios what the editor of the article has to say because on newegg you can get these very cheap and powerfull cards for very little money , how can you recommend 9800GTX+ ?
A chart of it would look like this :
4850 stock 625 1986 = 9800GTX 675 1100
4850 stock 625 1986 < 9800GTX+ 738 2400
4850 700 1986 = 9800GTX+ 738 2400
4850 700 2200 > 9800 GTX+ 738 2400
4850 700 2200 =~ 9800GTX+ overclocked to various speed 820-850 2500-2600
4850 750~800 2000~2400 > 9800GTX+ overclocked to various speeds 820-850 2500-2600
This is the real performance of these cards and i've seen them at work for like 4 months , i know what i'm talking about , tested them on a E8400 at 4 ghz and i just couldn't get more from the 9800GTX+ at 854 GPU 2000 shaders and 2400 memory the 9800GTX+ got beaten by a 4850 at 760 , 2100 in every game i tested.
Still have the 4850 if anyone has questions or tests but i only got an overcloked 2180 at 3.25.

Oh i almost forgot , there is a problem with Nvidia's image quality , i didn't noticed it when i had the cards because you really have to examine but who looks , well hardocp looks [H] Enthusiast - AMD's ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series Custom Filtering AA==
It's not a big thing and hardly anyone will notice difference betwen ATI and Nvidia but this makes you think how Nvidia is getting more performance from one driver to another and as stated in that article the AA of Nvidia is inferior to ATI's so not only the new GPU from ATI is in most games superior when AA is activated but the quality of the AA is better.

Last edited by aguy; December 1, 2008 at 06:34 PM.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old December 1, 2008, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aguy View Post
Hello all , first of all excuse my english , it's not my native language.I was browsing the net for some info to hack the gigabyte gamer hud for more voltage and i stumbled upon this forum , what shocked me was how misinformed people are here thinking that 9800GTX+ is a better card than a 4850.
I'm very curios what the editor of the article has to say because on newegg you can get these very cheap and powerfull cards for very little money , how can you recommend 9800GTX+ ?
Hmmm....what does the editor have to say?

Show me a HD4850 with equal performance to an EVGA 9800GTX+ with the same kind of warranty, a similar price and as good customer support. There is more to recommendations than performance alone.

Trust me, even with the new 8.12 drivers the HD4850 will probably get spanked the majority of the time. Maybe the 9.1 drivers will rectify that situation but those will be released in a while.

'nuff said.

Last edited by SKYMTL; December 1, 2008 at 06:34 PM.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old December 1, 2008, 06:31 PM
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I agree with you aguy, but the problem is that not very many people overclock their graphics cards, especially with ATI models because of the warranty. If it performs better out of the box, it will get better reviews.

Now personally I bought the 4850, and I love it. However, it does get hot. But, it does suit my purposes and the resolution that I play at. But now that these nvidia drivers have been released, it's an entirely different story.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old December 1, 2008, 06:45 PM
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You don't have to overclock to get a better product than a 9800GTX+ , HIS 4850 Iceq4 turbox comes overcloked and beats any 9800GTX+ , gainward 4850 golden sample beats any 9800GTX+ , gigabyte 1gb zalman beats any 9800GTX+ , sapphire toxic 4850 beats any 9800GTX+.
Warranty ? come on who keeps a video card a life time ? or 2 years ? most of the come with 3 years warranty so the life time warranty or 10 year is more of a marketing hype than a reality and if your card burst in flames than no warranty for you no matter if you get it from EVGA or BFG.
I don't know about customr support but i asume i'm talking with people that know how to use a computer.
Newegg.com - GIGABYTE GV-R485OC-1GH Radeon HD 4850 1GB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Desktop Graphics / Video Cards here it is , beats any 9800gtx+
Newegg.com - SAPPHIRE 100242TXSR Radeon Toxic HD 4850 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Desktop Graphics / Video Cards another one
i can keep posting if you want but i think i made my point.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old December 1, 2008, 06:50 PM
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Talk is cheap.

Show me proof.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old December 2, 2008, 12:33 AM
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Give me your custom timedemo of crysis to test it on my 4850.
Your proof is not valid for me , you could make up a lot of those numbers there , it's not like review wbesites didn't do it in absence of products.
From how i see the review i can understand something , maybe you have some deal with EVGA and make an article about a product they make , i know it's absurd to think that but from what does tech websites live ? money from sponsors and banners ? how long can you be accurate with those results if your sponsor enfoces you something on you like praise my product or i will go elsewhere.
Never trust tech websites to tell the whole truth.

Last edited by aguy; December 2, 2008 at 12:49 AM.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old December 2, 2008, 05:23 AM
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1.Why always Newegg....Newegg Sucks....they can't even match price of NCIX or direct canada...

2.Catalyst Sucks Hard,so as Foul ATI waranty...AMD know how to do chip but not Driver....

3.the 4850 is more powerhouse than 9800GTX+,i know that but a videocard is not just the hardware in it...Poor software with good hardware...hardware sucks even more...a chain is not stronger than it's weakiest chain link...

4.when someone start Criticized without checking THE FACTS!!!!....it's mean they don't have nothing good to say anymore!!... :o
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old December 2, 2008, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by aguy View Post
Give me your custom timedemo of crysis to test it on my 4850..
I'll do one better than that since I was planning on doing it anyways. Within the next week you will see a massive review posted with most of the new games benched on the latest GPUs. A few days after that is posted (and when I iron out some file access issues) I will be posting some of the timedemos I have used PUBLICALLY. They will be available for download by EVERYONE.

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Your proof is not valid for me , you could make up a lot of those numbers there , it's not like review wbesites didn't do it in absence of products.
I am sure some do but as you can see in every one of my reviews there are pictures of the actual products which pretty much means that I have it in-hand, no?

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From how i see the review i can understand something , maybe you have some deal with EVGA and make an article about a product they make , i know it's absurd to think that but from what does tech websites live ? money from sponsors and banners ?
Ah, the vast conspiracy theory again. It seems like we get one of these a month as do many other websites. It seems like you only read this one review but didn't see the particularly glowing reviews I gave many ATI products from the HD4870 to the HD4670.

Do banners and ad space money give companies the opening to lord over websites? Definately. But that is why many websites (this one included) keep the marketing side of things seperate from the review staff.

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how long can you be accurate with those results if your sponsor enfoces you something on you like praise my product or i will go elsewhere.
I see no EVGA banners on this site and even if there were, they are not the type of company who will hold ad money ransom for a positive review.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old December 2, 2008, 06:28 AM
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Come on , in the capitalist world you are living in they kill people for profit , they want you to believe that they are carring and human but behind all of these lies sometimes you hear about asian children making your nike shoes and people dying from toxic waste or a whole city from china or taiwan ( maybe not this 2 but i heard of a city from country ) that breads through a mask because of irrespirable air from factories.
Is EVGA better than this ? i don't think so because from what i know is the biggest Nvidia partener , they sell the most and they didn't get there by being nice.
You could argue that i don't have proof and i like conspiracy's i'm in fantasy land .... bla bla ... but i know better than to trust bullshit like this.
Now on to the matter of tests , i really want to believe this site is impartial , i've read many reviews from this website and i usually tend to believe what i see here so i really hope the next test you will do takes into account that there are overcloked products out there that should be considered against some other products that are pushed to the limits ( 9800GTX+ ).
I'm active on many forums and done a lot of tests and i can give you some advice :
1. video cards with 1gb memory seems to make a difference in some games this days and with vista , do not dismiss a 4850 or 4870 with 1gb saying it doesn't give anything more unlles you tested them in some heavy graphics games (far cry 2 seems to use it , even crysis in some scenarios of graphics)
2. you can't compare a referance product with an overcloked one even if nvidia says 9800GTX+ is just an upgrade from 9800GTX still it has the same arhitecture but on 55nm and with higher clocks so it makes sence to test it against a premium 4850 wich now comes in so many flavors , best of them are from gigabyte with the zalman wich hits 800 GPU most of the time and 2200-2400 memory , this is a video card that goes for 160-200$ on newegg so cheaper than 9800GTX+ and better performance
3.be supsicios of driver improvements from both ATI and Nvidia , especially Nvidia wich has the same arhitecture for some time (g80 128 shaders , g92 65 nm 128 shaders , g92B or soemthign 55nm 128 shaders) and drivers are tweaked to death , there is no more perforamnce you can get from an 9800GTX unlles you reduce quality in some places so invastigate image quality and AA like hardocp did and you will find some intresting things , maybe a test bench with 19-22 inch display won't see a difference if a texture is a bit blurry but a guy with a 50 inch display will see and won't like it very much.
4.tesing in 3dmarks is pointlles , it's known 3dmark 2006 give better scores on a 9800GTX than on a 4850 , even a 8800GT gives better scores sometimes if it comes overcloked a bit but in games 4850 is better so how is 3dmark giving you an ideaa of how good a product it is ?
3dmark vantage is another pointless test , it doesn't reflect how will it do in games and Nvidia cheats with driver improvements for physx and this is not apporved by futuremark , if you want to upload a result like this to be approved by ORB you won't get approved because driver cheats.
To explain it better , the score improvement comes from the video card helping the cpu do a CPU scene intended to only be a cpu testing scene and not something lese , somehow artificial increase of the score , in games this doesn't apply because the game would run much slower already seen if physx iis enabled and in 3dmark vantage the helping is done only in that scene , in the GPU tests the video card doesn't do any physx so how this is fair ? how does this reflect performance ? that's why 3dmarks should be ignored completly because one is to old and the new one is cheated to much to make it fair for the other one.
5. add more games to the test like grid racer , NFS undercover , team fortrees 2 ,stalker clear sky , these are games that are played hard (TF2 and NFS i mean ) and you may think TF2 is not so much stress on a video card but it is , when you play online with 32 people and you have 10-15 people at one time in your face sometimes the video card starts to show it's limits at some high resolution (1650x1080 , 1920x1200) with high AA and AF , crysis,cod4 and other games from your reviews are long done and finished by most people and some of them are not represating a modern video cards performamance like prey wich is a bit old , finished it with my x800 XT all high so you get my point.
I can't think of any more advice but if i do i will post more , can't wait for the mega review and please consider some of my advices because there are a lot of people out there that are sick of reviews with old games and 3dmarks , 3dmarks we can get them anywhere , just go on orb and you get all the results you want but they don't reflect the real gaming performance like they want us to believe.
Again excuse my english , it's not my native language , i probably have a ton of words spelled wrong there.

Last edited by aguy; December 2, 2008 at 06:36 AM.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old December 2, 2008, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by aguy View Post
Is EVGA better than this ? i don't think so because from what i know is the biggest Nvidia partener , they sell the most and they didn't get there by being nice.
You could argue that i don't have proof and i like conspiracy's i'm in fantasy land .... bla bla ... but i know better than to trust bullshit like this.
How does one respond to that other than to say: believe what you want but until you have lived in the situation you are talking about, you don't know jack.

Quote:
Now on to the matter of tests , i really want to believe this site is impartial , i've read many reviews from this website and i usually tend to believe what i see here so i really hope the next test you will do takes into account that there are overcloked products out there that should be considered against some other products that are pushed to the limits (9800GTX+ ).
Can I take the highest pre-overclocked 9800GTX+ against the highest-clocked HD4850? Do you REALLY think that will be a fair fight? Especially with the new drivers Nvidia released?

I think you are illustrating the main problem with readers' expectations. You expect sites to review every product from every manufacturer in order to account for every possible situation. Unfortunately, that is impossible. As it stands I test stock versus stock in the charts themselves but if a manufacturer sends an overclocked card I will be more than happy to review that...and I have in the past.

Quote:
1. video cards with 1gb memory seems to make a difference in some games this days and with vista , do not dismiss a 4850 or 4870 with 1gb saying it doesn't give anything more unlles you tested them in some heavy graphics games (far cry 2 seems to use it , even crysis in some scenarios of graphics)
I agree but you have to remember that a GPU has to be powerful enough to take advantage of 1GB. Take for example the 9800GT 1GB I tested a little while ago: there was only a few instances where the 1GB made any difference and 99.9% of those times it was at framerates which were unplayable anyways. The HD4870 1GB is a bit different but let's keep that discussion on the back burner for a few weeks, shall we?

Quote:
2. you can't compare a referance product with an overcloked one even if nvidia says 9800GTX+ is just an upgrade from 9800GTX still it has the same arhitecture but on 55nm and with higher clocks so it makes sence to test it against a premium 4850 wich now comes in so many flavors , best of them are from gigabyte with the zalman wich hits 800 GPU most of the time and 2200-2400 memory , this is a video card that goes for 160-200$ on newegg so cheaper than 9800GTX+ and better performance
What? Granted, the 9800GTX+ is an overclocked version of the 9800GTX but it also carries with it a new core. There are STOCK-clocked 9800GTX+ cards and there are OVERCLOCKED 9800GTX+ cards. They are seperate SKUs just like there are overclocked and stock HD4850 cards.

If you want me to start taking the 9800GTX+ as nothing more than an overclocked 9800GTX, how about I start removing the HD4870 from my charts since it is nothing more than a HD4850 with GDDR5?

Quote:
3.be supsicios of driver improvements from both ATI and Nvidia , especially Nvidia wich has the same arhitecture for some time (g80 128 shaders , g92 65 nm 128 shaders , g92B or soemthign 55nm 128 shaders) and drivers are tweaked to death , there is no more perforamnce you can get from an 9800GTX unlles you reduce quality in some places so invastigate image quality and AA like hardocp did and you will find some intresting things , maybe a test bench with 19-22 inch display won't see a difference if a texture is a bit blurry but a guy with a 50 inch display will see and won't like it very much.
Bullshit. Granted, there have been some cases where both ATI and Nvidia have had driver issues which necessitated optimizations in image quality but to say performance increases are nothing more than lowering the visual standards is naive in the extreme.

Unless there is a noticeable difference in image quality, I will never mention it. Ever. They day I start picking apart games for image tweaks which will go unnoticed by 99% of the gamers out there is the day I poke a rusty nail through my testicles. If you want to get the lowdown on how many jaggies can be found on a fence 4 miles away in Fallout 3, run over to Anandtech or HardOCP. They are waiting for you with open arms.

Quote:
4.tesing in 3dmarks is pointlles , it's known 3dmark 2006 give better scores on a 9800GTX than on a 4850 , even a 8800GT gives better scores sometimes if it comes overcloked a bit but in games 4850 is better so how is 3dmark giving you an ideaa of how good a product it is ?
Hence why sites use 3DMark AND games. 3DMark gives users the possibility of comparing their system to the one used in the review.


On a side note, you should be happy with the results you see in the 9800GTX+ review because the HD4850 fares even worse in the newest games. I have mentioned this time and again: all future GPU reviews will hold a brand new game lineup. However, this will also cause the ATI fans to cry foul louder than ever considering their beloved cards get pistol whipped more often than not.
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