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Old August 10, 2011, 04:12 AM
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Default SSD Defrag

errr I have done this twice, but now that I read somethings up, I think I realize i should not have done this.
"If you have defragged your ssd even once you should do a secure erase and reload win7. Ensure the bios is set to ACHI before windows is loaded AND, if you partition the drive to, say 100 GB (of the 120ish), it will help ensure the drive continues to function at high speeds even with TRIM working."

Am I just being scared, or do I actually need to do this >.<
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Old August 10, 2011, 06:07 AM
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to my knowledge from the articles i have read online and from other forums... there is no need to defrag SSDs since it causes lots of write processes which means that the drive will reach its write limits sooner...

And there is nothing to be gained by defragging a SSD anyway.
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Old August 10, 2011, 06:11 AM
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I have never read anywhere that you need to format the drive and reinstall if you've defagged the drive. I can't see how that makes any sense at all. The only reason a defrag is needed on a mechanical drive is that the read head had to move back and forth to read the info, so if the data is all over the place it takes more time. Obviously an SSD doesn't have that limitation.
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Old August 10, 2011, 06:17 AM
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I understand the cons of defragging the SSD, I was just so use to doing it on my HDD I didn't even think about it.

I just want to know if I did any real damage to my SSD, I don't see why I would have to re-install everything but then again I am not sure at all.
Don't worry I don't plan to defrag it ever again hahaha *sigh*
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Old August 10, 2011, 07:59 AM
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Defraging is not need on SSDs as every cell has the same latency / "speed" of being accessed.

You didnt do any harm per say to your ssd. What you did do is use up a erase cycle on a BUNCH of nand blocks. (1 of 3000 if its 25nm nand..unless its intel then its 1 of 5000).
The reason its recommended to do a sani erase is you just screwed up the internal drive map of your SF drive. SF drives are different than most and you basically hammered it and put it into a hammered state (on of the 3 states the SF controller operates in...aka emergency slow down to reduce nand wear) AND your drive's NAND is ALSO in a degraded state. This is a double whammy for SandForce drives.

IF you dont have a SF drive, then you should be OK without a sani erase. No real hammered state for the controller to go into, and the NAND will take care of itself via actual TRIM or ITGC (SF drives dont really respect TRIM commands..and their background garbage collection is SLOW). You may notice some performance degradation for the next couple weeks until the drive gets itself back in shape. IF you dont want to wait and DO notice a performance hit...sani erase it and start from scratch.

TL;DR SF drive sani erase it for YOUR sanity. if not a SF drive probably ok without doing it. Either way no real lasting harm / damage done to the SSD.

Hope that helps. :)
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Old August 10, 2011, 03:05 PM
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Great info AkG, thanks for clearing that up.
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Old August 10, 2011, 09:09 PM
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awesome man, thanks. Now I didn't understand some of the words you used in there hahaha but I intend to look them up.
just for reference I have a OCZ Vertex 2 60gig with Windows 7 64bit and I really only use the OS on the SSD, everything else goes on the HDD, I haven't personally noticed any system performance degradation but it has only been one day.

Thanks for all the help, at least it seems like it will fix it self? lol time to do some more research

Correct me if I am wrong
Quote:
Originally Posted by AkG View Post
Defraging is not need on SSDs as every cell has the same latency / "speed" of being accessed.

You didnt do any harm per say to your ssd. What you did do is use up a erase cycle on a BUNCH of nand blocks. (1 of 3000 if its 25nm nand..unless its intel then its 1 of 5000).
The reason its recommended to do a sani erase is you just screwed up the internal drive map of your SF drive. SF drives are different than most and you basically hammered it and put it into a hammered state (on of the 3 states the SF controller operates in...aka emergency slow down to reduce nand wear) AND your drive's NAND is ALSO in a degraded state. This is a double whammy for SandForce drives.

IF you dont have a SF drive, then you should be OK without a sani erase. No real hammered state for the controller to go into, and the NAND will take care of itself via actual TRIM or ITGC (SF drives dont really respect TRIM commands..and their background garbage collection is SLOW). You may notice some performance degradation for the next couple weeks until the drive gets itself back in shape. IF you dont want to wait and DO notice a performance hit...sani erase it and start from scratch.

TL;DR SF drive sani erase it for YOUR sanity. if not a SF drive probably ok without doing it. Either way no real lasting harm / damage done to the SSD.

Hope that helps. :)
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Old August 11, 2011, 09:00 AM
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Exactly, hdds are deragged because differnent parts of the platter have different performance AND when a file is in small chunks a physical read/write head and arm has to be MOVED to the new location to read it. This takes time. Time== lower performance. A ssd's blocks are all the same speed and can (basically) be accessed with almost no latency difference. Thus defrag == useless.

A SF controller (in you case the SF1200 series) is an odd duck. Most controllers and ssds have two states "factory" and "broken in" or normal operating state. SF have three "factory", "broken in / normal operating" and "hammered". Factory is the fastest, but it never lasts UNLESS you sani erase as the internal drive map is clean and ALL the NAND is in a virgin state. Broken in or used state the controller has a fully working map of the nand and whats in it (even the used but no longer in use cells). THis is about 80-90 percent of factory. Hammered state is when the amount of IOs have reached a critical point and the DuraWrite alogs kick in to SLOW things down as the controller feels the NAND life is being used up too fast. You did it via a Defrag, but doing a crap ton of synth tests will also do it (or a lot of incompressible data). The other odd thing about SF drives is that they dont realy respect the TRIM command. They go "ok, gotcha" to the command being sent but dont actually always carry out the cleaning of the nand blocks in real time. They simply add it to their internal map of the nand. This is where the 2nd part of why defrag is so bad, as the internal map has a lot of wonky data as the files were moved around. Sooo you got a controller going "omfg we have a perfect storm happening...batten down the hatches and slooooow things down" + an internal map of the NAND that is messed up + a lot of NAND dirtied for no good reason + NAND life was burned for no good reason.

If you have patience after a couple days the controller will peak its head out and go "ok the strom is over" and go back to a normal state. Then after a couple weeks the internal drive map will be updated with "good" data and the drive will recover (plus some background garbage collection working). In the mean time performance will be decreased. Fastest way to fix it is run a sani erase, then a quick format in a TRIM environment and then start from scratch (you can restore from backup IF the program is newer and SSD aware).
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Old August 12, 2011, 12:47 AM
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Hey man thanks a lot, Even though I still don't understand all the terms. I do understand what is going on, and what are my options.

I have lots of time, so I will just let the computer do its thing. I plan to by a sata3 SSD soon to run my OS off of anyways sometime in the near future, then run everything else off my Sata 2 SSD that way if it dies it isn't a big deal, just got to replace the programs and the SSD.

Thanks again man
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