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  #51 (permalink)  
Old December 8, 2011, 05:43 PM
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Honestly, after my experiences with AMD I have zero faith in their ability to create a TRIM capable system. I have proven it to my own satisfaction that the "trim enabled" driver for the 8 series doesnt always work. AMD systems are also slower than than Intel's when it comes to SSD performance. This is two of the main reasons why after only after a little over a year that I will dropping my AMD rig and going for an Intel 2011 rig.

The problem with writes is that yes in theory they will last a long long time....the newer gen of NAND is much more fragile than the older. What was once 10,000 erase cycles is now 3,000 to 5,000. Minimizing needles to writes is always a good idea. Is it NEEDED? Not if you plan on replacing it within the warranty period. If you plan on keeping it say 5+ years....then YES it certainly is a great idea. It is also still a good idea to leave as much room as possible free. The more room free the more NAND the writes are spread out across.
I definitely do plan on keeping a SSD for as long as possible. However all these changes to minimize writes, well how can we do that. Firefox in the OP was just one example. I mean, a lot of programs write to C: and there's nothing you can do about that. Sure I can install programs in D: like I mentioned before, but would that prevent it from writing in C:?
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old December 8, 2011, 05:54 PM
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I definitely do plan on keeping a SSD for as long as possible. However all these changes to minimize writes, well how can we do that. Firefox in the OP was just one example. I mean, a lot of programs write to C: and there's nothing you can do about that. Sure I can install programs in D: like I mentioned before, but would that prevent it from writing in C:?
Anand's had a big thing discussing the irelivents of actualy writes to a ssd. I believe he discovered that even at max writes a SSD would still take 5 years before it was done. And with the advancement of technoligy & controlers its not a issue if you think you will possibly move to a larger SSD within 5 years.

That said, its 1 of the main reasons my torrents are taken from a physical hard disc vs my ssd as only running the program itself.

The new OCZ Idillix Everest controler with the exstended life nand technoligy in it might be something to look at, but again its a new SSD & a new controler with no prolonged testing yet.
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Old December 8, 2011, 06:37 PM
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I am about as much a "Fan BOI" as you are a intel one .... So moot point in some kinda argument your trying to make. Same as this somehow i am going around ... " promoting BD" .... why not, its not unusabled worst preforming crap as many peaple TRY to say it is like your insinuating like somehow a Intel Celron would be a better cpu/investment. Give your own head a shake there man !!

Just cause I have some balls to not go baaaahhhhhh & follow intel like yourself or others do .. that somehow makes me a "AMD fan Boi" cause I have some kinda rashional logical thoughts of realizing as a "Pro Consumer Fan Boi" as you like to put it IF everyone buys intel WE AS CONSUMERS can kiss our butts bu-bye for having no choice in the market, no inovations & most importantly PAYING A RANDSOM FOR SLOW NOT UP TO DATE TECHNOLIGY.

Sorry I don't have the money or support as you or others do or some type of IT degree to do reviews or what not. BUT I've been involved with computers since 86' & more so been hands on owning, upgrading helping friends build/design/upgrade there pc's as well as reading pc sites since 96'. I've also owned/used/recomended to friends AMD/ATI, Intel & Nvidia based items I seen how they preform as well as read so.

Are you going to insinuate further/insult my inteligence that I am some kinda "blind AMD Fan BOI" cause I seen absolutely NO preformance diffrence in a Dell box that had Core i7 860 with same amount of ram in it vs my current custom assembled Phenom II X4 955 BE ? Funny even my bud a few blocks away whom was the hardest of intel supports & does buy intel he still can see the value in AMD stuff & its importance to the consumer market & technoligy in general. Is he a "AMD Fan BOI" then cause of that that he's seen & concluded with his own mind & free will ?

Funny I am shure if ANYONE followed my posting on this forum since the bd lauch they would find little to no posts in me sayin " oh you gotta buy a bd insted of a intel ". It is a consumers choice to be given BOTH side's of things so they can make there own choices.

And just cause I disagree with your opinion/view/stance on why someone MUST buy a intel .... doesn't give you any right to call me or conclude I am some kinda "AMD Fan BOI" .... I am a consumer 1st & formost, 2ndly I have given you respect for the quality of your reviews ... but do I go around on this site calling you a "Intel Fan BOI" for all of them .... NO.

Simply put & maybe you can understand this, a CONSUMER/PC USER does not ALWAYS need the best, fastest or most advanced hardware for there needs. And it speak's volumes when 1 of intels own reps points out AMD is competitve vs them in the low to mid value market.

Since 86...yawn. Son. I've been in computers a lot longer than you. I have worked in storage at a higher level than you. I have built more rigs than you. I have done more than you and have more experience than you. But who cares. That is all secondary.

What is important is that I am a fanboi of no company. I have burned Intel in the past just as much as I burn AMD now (you do notice that Intel doesnt send "me" SSDs to review dont you? Its for a good reason. I dont cut anyone ANY slack).

What I am is a consumer fanboi. I want what is best for consumers. Right now that means for SSDs my recommendation is Intel rigs. AMD is too variable for a first time consumer. That is the whole point of this thread. The thread you are now twisting into another AMD vs Intel flame war. You say go with inferior tech...and I go "why would anyone want to do that?" SSD consumers are looking for performance. The only way to ensure that you get ALL that performance right now is via an Intel ICH / PCH. This is the reason that damn near all reviewers use Intel gear to test SSDs. IF we were talking about HDDs the difference is too small to worry about. We are not. This thread is on Solid State Drives.

Am I stating that if you have an AMD rig that you should dump it and go with Intel....nope. Go with a good SSD that can take care of itself (eg M4, 510, etc)....then when you go to upgrade to a NEW rig...go Intel then.

I have called you an AMD fanboi as you go as far as stating that unless AMD is 50% slower that there is no reason to call it inferior to Intel. Then, you compare a custom quad AMD rig running at 3.2ghz with a store bought Intel quad running at 2.8ghz....and yet you see no difference in performance. Hmm....I wonder why. :/

These are two perfect examples of fanboi'ism if I have ever heard of. A 10% performance boost is the same as taking a step down in price when it comes to most SSD's. In many instances this would be the same as running a ONFi 1.0 drive instead of a ONFi 2.0....or ONFi 2 instead of Toggle Mode Nand. That is a bad waste of resources.

There are plenty of threads all over the place with regards to AMD and TRIM. Do your own bloody homework. If / when you do, you will notice that official comments from AMD are few and bloody far between. The 8 series was the very first gen AMD was willing to make ANY claim of TRIM support. Diagnosing a lack of TRIM is bloody difficult. You have to hammer the drives and test, test test. Not many people are willing to degrade their drives like that. I was. Before ITGC could kick in I could see a huge decrease in performance on my AMD rig. This however took even me a long bloody while to track down the root cause and it was only because I am so OCD on my reviews that I was able to do this (it was driving me nuts why the performance would vary so damn much). It was why I moved the testbed from AMD to Intel.

To be honest, while I am disappointed in AMD I am not overly surprised. I have yet to see ANY company get things 100% right the first or even second time around. Considering the lose / lose proposition of BD I doubt you will see many enthusiasts running a SSD go for a BD rig so it is a very low priority for AMD right now who have much larger problems to deal with.

Compare and contrast this level of support with Intel who first introduced TRIM support way back on their ICH9R chipset (which indeed was less than optimal and fraught with issues when it came to SSDs), further refined on the ICH 10 and then further refined with the PCH in the newer 1155 and 2011. This is NOT to say that Intel has it 100% right either. They dont. There is a good bit of talk that a lot of the issues SandForce SF2281s were running into was due to the Intel PCH being wonky (if you take a close look you will notice that Intel 3 and 5 series dont implement some of the advanced features the newish Intel PCH boasts...but SandForce drives do...to their detriment). However, Intel has it more right than AMD. That means they get my vote.

To everyone but TerryBear....Take that for its worth (one mans opinion based on my own experiences). I only offer advice when asked. If you run AMD and are perfectly happy with it...mazel tov.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geokilla View Post
I definitely do plan on keeping a SSD for as long as possible. However all these changes to minimize writes, well how can we do that. Firefox in the OP was just one example. I mean, a lot of programs write to C: and there's nothing you can do about that. Sure I can install programs in D: like I mentioned before, but would that prevent it from writing in C:?
Honestly, the biggest thing you can do is give the drive as much free space as possible. THe more space the longer it will last. There is a point of deminishing returns and it is all about reducing needless writes....but at the end of the day...keep more space free is the BIGGEST thing you can do to make sure the NAND wont be the first thing to die with the drive. Instead of 15% aim for 25%. More room == more room for wear leveling == less writes per NAND cell.
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Last edited by AkG; December 8, 2011 at 07:04 PM.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old December 8, 2011, 07:08 PM
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To everyone but TerryBear....Take that for its worth (one mans opinion based on my own experiences). I only offer advice when asked. If you run AMD and are perfectly happy with it...mazel tov.


Honestly, the biggest thing you can do is give the drive as much free space as possible. THe more space the longer it will last. There is a point of deminishing returns and it is all about reducing needless writes....but at the end of the day...keep more space free is the BIGGEST thing you can do to make sure the NAND wont be the first thing to die with the drive. Instead of 15% aim for 25%. More room == more room for wear leveling == less writes per NAND cell.

I honestly like I said had the resources & understood fully how to do the thing with the ssd trim or what not I'd probly be just as maticulous / OCD about what I had to review.

So fair enough understanding on things & ty for taking the time to do so .. Btw I did say they should try to get you a higher end videocard for your reviews ..

Last edited by terrybear; December 8, 2011 at 08:18 PM.
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Old December 8, 2011, 07:12 PM
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Pardon me, Im not "grasping at straws" & I think its rather insulting that someone actualy thinks abit positivly from a AMD platform that is not that "flawed" as some of you's may disagree with me about & ban me for tryin to respectfully disgree with it & give US the consumer a choice cause i am some kinda fanatical "AMD Fan Boi"?

All I have stated in THIS thread is I myself have not seen or read of failed trim in amd chipsets to date ... If you's can point me to information/factual proof on the matter I can change that view.

Sorry but i don't sit on this site or other site's waiting to start arguments & proclaim amd to be the almight, best & ONLY options like a fanatical fanboy would do as I am being acused of/ thought of as being ...
That impression that I have is not isolated to me (generalizion of some posting in that thread with BD). But I am not going to split hairs about it. My point to get across is I do not want a degeneration of this thread.
I have not called you a Fanboi.
Nor do I feel it necessary to establish my credentials to anyone.

You're now getting extremist thinking 'Ban' and such for stating your opinion. That is fine if its factual.
As much as you say give me links, I ask you the same token. I was on AMD forum hoping and longing for some proof that my multiple AMD systems would have support. Instead I got ITGC and that was it. Which resulted in a few First Gen V drives dying because of how agressive it was when no TRIM Is passed.

I have layed no accusations. I have only asked that we maintain a better thread disposition than what others have become.

-ST
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old December 8, 2011, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by terrybear View Post
I honestly like I said had the resources & understood fully how to do the thing with the ssd trim or what not I'd probly be just as maticulous / OCD about what I had to review.

So fair enough understanding on things & ty for taking the time to do so .. Btw I did say they should try to get you a higher end videocard for your reviews ..


Its all good mate, and I do apologize if I come across as overly harsh. This thread is the first thing a lot of new comers see, thus I dont want to let less than the best information possible stand without correcting it. SSDs are still bleeding edge and I truly dont want anyone to be turned off them because of a bad first time experience. Its actually the other reason why I have nt updated the first post with details on the newer gen drives. I want to leave this as "primer" and have peeps ask specific questions in the rest of the forum (ie make a new thread)...as that is the best way for as many people here to see the question and help.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old December 8, 2011, 09:12 PM
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Well this is quite interesting to read. Some of the information in there is completely opposite of what AkG suggests.

New to SSDs? Read this first before asking questions! (UPDATED 07/17/2011) - AnandTech Forums
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old December 13, 2011, 08:55 PM
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Your input AkG? ^
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Old December 13, 2011, 09:37 PM
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I stopped reading when I saw this:

"Best SSDs to buy for operating systems that do not have Trim support -
This means YOU with the WinXP/OSX/etc

(Trim currently requires Windows 7 and a SATA controller that supports AHCI mode)
Kingston SSDNow V+100 (Toshiba T6UG1XBG, same as Macbook Air)
Intel SSDs
Sandforce controller SSDs"

Intel and SandForce based drives are the worst choices for non-trim enviro. The ONLY exception to this is the Intel drives which use the Marvel controller....which is not even on the "best" list.

To be fair its probably outdated...just like this thread is. BUT by the same token...YMMV when reading it (or mine)....and the Intels and SF gen 1s were WORSE than the newer and have no business being on any list...at any time in the past.
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Old December 14, 2011, 03:57 AM
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Isn't the M4 a solid choice for non-Trim rigs too?
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