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  #41 (permalink)  
Old October 23, 2011, 07:34 PM
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First of all this is an awesome post AkG! Just what I needed to know. I do have a question though...according to your OP (i did not read any posts afterward, sorry I need the sleep) since the 4k random write/read of these 2 drives... http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/409?vs=371 ...are very similar then it does not really matter to me how much better the Force GT is than the Agility 3 at everything else? FYI I mostly care about the OS and games when taking SSD's into consideration.

Last edited by lightninstrikr; October 25, 2011 at 07:04 PM.
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Old November 29, 2011, 09:30 AM
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Awesome, these guides help so much. I'm a member of numerous PC forums and have to say I love HC guides the most.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old December 4, 2011, 06:16 PM
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I'm consider buying a SSD as OS drive before, but all I know is that SSD cannot handle too much read/write and it will shorten its life.

AkG, thank you so much for this informative post! I learn lots from this one!
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Old December 8, 2011, 12:58 PM
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AkG, is the information in the OP still relevant? I've been researching around and it seems that even the AMD 7XX mobos can TRIM now as it's a software/driver kinda thing. There's also no need to limit the write because the general consensus seems to be that a SSD will last longer than the computer itself. I myself am thinking of upgrade my CPU and mobo as you may have noticed from my thread, and SSD seems to be quite a viable option.

There is one thing I'm worried about, and that's how I should handle my program installations. Obviously if you have a 60GB SSD, then you can't really install any programs so they have to be installed on the hard drive. Got any tips on how to handle this if I format my computer with all my programs in say D:?

There also seems to be this thing where I can use SSD as a cache drive. Can you update the OP with information on that? I might have missed it, but I didn't see any mention on it.
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Old December 8, 2011, 01:20 PM
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Honestly, after my experiences with AMD I have zero faith in their ability to create a TRIM capable system. I have proven it to my own satisfaction that the "trim enabled" driver for the 8 series doesnt always work. AMD systems are also slower than than Intel's when it comes to SSD performance. This is two of the main reasons why after only after a little over a year that I will dropping my AMD rig and going for an Intel 2011 rig.

The problem with writes is that yes in theory they will last a long long time....the newer gen of NAND is much more fragile than the older. What was once 10,000 erase cycles is now 3,000 to 5,000. Minimizing needles to writes is always a good idea. Is it NEEDED? Not if you plan on replacing it within the warranty period. If you plan on keeping it say 5+ years....then YES it certainly is a great idea. It is also still a good idea to leave as much room as possible free. The more room free the more NAND the writes are spread out across.

When it comes to Intel SRT ( I assume that is what you mean by cache drive. Otherwise a SSD for the systems cache...is a bad idea. You will kill your SSD well before the warranty runs out) I am of two minds. It can potentialy be a great boon. BUT I prefer to use a SSD for the main OS "C" drive and the hdd as a "D" drive. If all I could afford was a 60GB...then I would think about it. The only SSD I would recommend for such an environment (as it is a NON-TRIM setup) is the Marvell based drives. Intel 510, Crucial M4, Corsair Performance Plus. All three are good drives that can take care of themselves. I would not use a SandForce drive.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old December 8, 2011, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AkG View Post
Honestly, after my experiences with AMD I have zero faith in their ability to create a TRIM capable system. I have proven it to my own satisfaction that the "trim enabled" driver for the 8 series doesnt always work. AMD systems are also slower than than Intel's when it comes to SSD performance. This is two of the main reasons why after only after a little over a year that I will dropping my AMD rig and going for an Intel 2011 rig.
Again I have to respectfuly not agree with what AkG says here .... as long as the os reports trim as being enabled then the support is there weither it fully works or doesnt.

Same as this " AMD is slower then intel in ssd preformance " is partialy false .... cause if that was the case I would never have gotten FULL read/write speeds/preformace in 4k & what not on my Vertex 2 I have. Again peaple like to "generalize" things to easily in instances like this. The FEW times I have seen a spedific SSD drive on both a AMD & Intel latest chipset .... in the 1 instance the AMD system showed like maybe a 50/mb's slower rate in write preformance. I believe it was a Force 3 drive in which the intel was a X6x chipset vs amd 990 .... in read/write it was 550/520 intel to 534/470 amd. Does that justify calling it "slower" cause its 16/50 mb/s slower then the intel & not to buy it based on this 1 review ... NO. Start talking about 100 mb/s +/or around 50% on BOTH ... THEN you have a VERY valid argument

This is the reason why its important to read multiple reviews/do research before you put a system together .... most review sites/reviewers are not blessed to be handed x amount of componets from companies to test/review to post a statisticaly & factualy sound review/preview for folks.

I am in no way tryin to fully discredit AkG's position/opinion as I do like the job he does do on his reviews for the site ... BUT just making a point that in fact just cause one person's/review/opinion might be negative .. anothers might not be OR show otherwise .... which is why I myself like to read a bunch of reviews before I formulate a good bad or indifrent view on a componet with what was presented to me in information by various reviews/sites.

OH I forgot to add .... I do agree with AkG's recomendation of the marvel based SSD's .... as currently sandforce models are still maturing & OCZ's Idillinx Everest/Octaine SSD's while having great read speeds I feel are VERY hampered by there low write preformance that then for the same cost i feel are not currently worth it unless your looking at the 512 gig model.

Last edited by terrybear; December 8, 2011 at 03:34 PM.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old December 8, 2011, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by terrybear View Post
Again I have to respectfuly not agree with what AkG says here .... as long as the os reports trim as being enabled then the support is there weither it fully works or doesnt.

Same as this " AMD is slower then intel in ssd preformance " is partialy false .... cause if that was the case I would never have gotten FULL read/write speeds/preformace in 4k & what not on my Vertex 2 I have. Again peaple like to "generalize" things to easily in instances like this. The FEW times I have seen a spedific SSD drive on both a AMD & Intel latest chipset .... in the 1 instance the AMD system showed like maybe a 50/mb's slower rate in write preformance. I believe it was a Force 3 drive in which the intel was a X6x chipset vs amd 990 .... in read/write it was 550/520 intel to 534/470 amd. Does that justify calling it "slower" cause its 16/50 mb/s slower then the intel & not to buy it based on this 1 review ... NO. Start talking about 100 mb/s +/or around 50% on BOTH ... THEN you have a VERY valid argument

This is the reason why its important to read multiple reviews/do research before you put a system together .... most review sites/reviewers are not blessed to be handed x amount of componets from companies to test/review to post a statisticaly & factualy sound review/preview for folks.

I am in no way tryin to fully discredit AkG's position/opinion as I do like the job he does do on his reviews for the site ... BUT just making a point that in fact just cause one person's/review/opinion might be negative .. anothers might not be OR show otherwise .... which is why I myself like to read a bunch of reviews before I formulate a good bad or indifrent view on a componet with what was presented to me in information by various reviews/sites.

OH I forgot to add .... I do agree with AkG's recomendation of the marvel based SSD's .... as currently sandforce models are still maturing & OCZ's Idillinx Everest/Octaine SSD's while having great read speeds I feel are VERY hampered by there low write preformance that then for the same cost i feel are not currently worth it unless your looking at the 512 gig model.

Terrybear /sigh. You may want to stick to areas you actually know what you are talking about. AMD fanboi'ism has blinded you....again. Just like your blind support for BD.

The OS has NO clue if the command is making it to the SSD or not. It just passes it on. Even on old mobos that dont support TRIM...the OS will show it as enabled. My best guess is the AMD driver is only 95% working. I am not the only one to experience AMD's TRIM 'support' shitting the bed. You would know this if you dealt with more than a couple SSDs and a couple systems. There is a lot of links in the TRIM chain. AMD has poor support for TRIM because in some cases the driver fails and in others their storage controller fails to pass it on. The end result is you can not trust your AMD rig with 100% certainty to pass on TRIM.

AMD is well known for being about 10 percent slower than Intel. You even have proven that yourself, whether you want to see the truth or not. I. Do. Not. Care. As. You. Are. A. Fanboi. It is sad to see an otherwise intelligent person be so blinded (in your world AMD has to be 50% slower before you will admit to there being a difference!), but the fact still remains that AMD rigs are slower at storage related tasks than Intel. Hell please dont even get me STARTED on AMD's less than great Cool N Quiet drivers. That is some of the most poorly coded driver that I have seen in a long while that can easily turn a small difference into a large one.

The net result. If you are buying a new rig and want to get the most performance from it you buy an Intel rig. Not. A. AMD. System. They are slower, more prone to failure of TRIM and all round more hassle than their Intel counterparts. This is coming from somebody who usually couldnt care less about Intel or AMD. I ran both. However, where SSD's are the future I refuse to spend money on a company which has shown to be dragging its heels on SSD support. After all, if I am spending 300 - 800 for a SSD I damn well want every bit of performance that I paid for. IF the successor to BD proves that AMD is finally gotten SSD support right...bonus. I probably will be the first person in line to BUY it. Until then, my money is going to Intel and so would yours Terrybear IF you want to actually get all the speed from your SSDs.
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Last edited by AkG; December 8, 2011 at 04:32 PM.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old December 8, 2011, 04:30 PM
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Terrybear, one thing to seriously consider as well is if the drive has weak ITGC and with TRIM an honest unknown on AMD its only a matter of time before the drive gets more degraded. So sure initially the drive speed difference is a small percentage, after a long period of time without provisioning that difference is going to increase greatly.

As well AkG has a phenomal amount of experience in this regard with storage. And when even on AMD's own forum thread they have conflicting reports of if TRIM Is passed on or not with their chipsets.


Please do not turn a helpful thread into another grasping at straws post that the BD thread became.
It is what it is. AMD is grey area and always will be until they get there act together.
With intel based systems, it just works. What does that tell you ?

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  #49 (permalink)  
Old December 8, 2011, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AkG View Post
Terrybear /sigh. You may want to stick to areas you actually know what you are talking about. AMD fanboi'ism has blinded you....again. Just like your blind support for BD.

The OS has NO clue if the command is making it to the SSD or not. It just passes it on. Even on old mobos that dont support TRIM...the OS will show it as enabled. My best guess is the AMD driver is only 95% working. I am not the only one to experience AMD's TRIM 'support' shitting the bed. You would know this if you dealt with more than a couple SSDs and a couple systems. There is a lot of links in the TRIM chain. AMD has poor support for TRIM because in some cases the driver fails and in others their storage controller fails to pass it on. The end result is you can not trust your AMD rig with 100% certainty to pass on TRIM.

AMD is well known for being about 10 percent slower than Intel. You even have proven that yourself, whether you want to see the truth or not. I. Do. Not. Care. As. You. Are. A. Fanboi. It is sad to see an otherwise intelligent person be so blinded, but the fact still remains that AMD rigs are slower at storage related tasks than Intel. Hell please dont even get me STARTED on AMD's less than great Cool N Quiet drivers. That is some of the most poorly coded driver that I have seen in a long while that can easily turn a small difference into a large one.

The net result. If you are buying a new rig and want to get the most performance from it you buy an Intel rig. Not. A. AMD. System. They are slower, more prone to failure of TRIM and all round more hassle than their Intel counterparts. This is coming from somebody who usually couldnt care less about Intel or AMD. I ran both. However, where SSD's are the future I refuse to spend money on a company which has shown to be dragging its heels on SSD support. After all, if I am spending 300 - 800 for a SSD I damn well want every bit of performance that I paid for. IF the successor to BD proves that AMD is finally gotten SSD support right...bonus. I probably will be the first person in line to BUY it. Until then, my money is going to Intel and so would yours Terrybear IF you want to actually get all the speed from your SSDs.
I am about as much a "Fan BOI" as you are a intel one .... So moot point in some kinda argument your trying to make. Same as this somehow i am going around ... " promoting BD" .... why not, its not unusabled worst preforming crap as many peaple TRY to say it is like your insinuating like somehow a Intel Celron would be a better cpu/investment. Give your own head a shake there man !!

Just cause I have some balls to not go baaaahhhhhh & follow intel like yourself or others do .. that somehow makes me a "AMD fan Boi" cause I have some kinda rashional logical thoughts of realizing as a "Pro Consumer Fan Boi" as you like to put it IF everyone buys intel WE AS CONSUMERS can kiss our butts bu-bye for having no choice in the market, no inovations & most importantly PAYING A RANDSOM FOR SLOW NOT UP TO DATE TECHNOLIGY.

Sorry I don't have the money or support as you or others do or some type of IT degree to do reviews or what not. BUT I've been involved with computers since 86' & more so been hands on owning, upgrading helping friends build/design/upgrade there pc's as well as reading pc sites since 96'. I've also owned/used/recomended to friends AMD/ATI, Intel & Nvidia based items I seen how they preform as well as read so.

Are you going to insinuate further/insult my inteligence that I am some kinda "blind AMD Fan BOI" cause I seen absolutely NO preformance diffrence in a Dell box that had Core i7 860 with same amount of ram in it vs my current custom assembled Phenom II X4 955 BE ? Funny even my bud a few blocks away whom was the hardest of intel supports & does buy intel he still can see the value in AMD stuff & its importance to the consumer market & technoligy in general. Is he a "AMD Fan BOI" then cause of that that he's seen & concluded with his own mind & free will ?

Funny I am shure if ANYONE followed my posting on this forum since the bd lauch they would find little to no posts in me sayin " oh you gotta buy a bd insted of a intel ". It is a consumers choice to be given BOTH side's of things so they can make there own choices.

And just cause I disagree with your opinion/view/stance on why someone MUST buy a intel .... doesn't give you any right to call me or conclude I am some kinda "AMD Fan BOI" .... I am a consumer 1st & formost, 2ndly I have given you respect for the quality of your reviews ... but do I go around on this site calling you a "Intel Fan BOI" for all of them .... NO.

Simply put & maybe you can understand this, a CONSUMER/PC USER does not ALWAYS need the best, fastest or most advanced hardware for there needs. And it speak's volumes when 1 of intels own reps points out AMD is competitve vs them in the low to mid value market.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old December 8, 2011, 05:16 PM
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Terrybear, one thing to seriously consider as well is if the drive has weak ITGC and with TRIM an honest unknown on AMD its only a matter of time before the drive gets more degraded. So sure initially the drive speed difference is a small percentage, after a long period of time without provisioning that difference is going to increase greatly.

As well AkG has a phenomal amount of experience in this regard with storage. And when even on AMD's own forum thread they have conflicting reports of if TRIM Is passed on or not with their chipsets.


Please do not turn a helpful thread into another grasping at straws post that the BD thread became.
It is what it is. AMD is grey area and always will be until they get there act together.
With intel based systems, it just works. What does that tell you ?

-ST
Pardon me, Im not "grasping at straws" & I think its rather insulting that someone actualy thinks abit positivly from a AMD platform that is not that "flawed" as some of you's may disagree with me about & ban me for tryin to respectfully disgree with it & give US the consumer a choice cause i am some kinda fanatical "AMD Fan Boi"?

All I have stated in THIS thread is I myself have not seen or read of failed trim in amd chipsets to date ... If you's can point me to information/factual proof on the matter I can change that view.

Sorry but i don't sit on this site or other site's waiting to start arguments & proclaim amd to be the almight, best & ONLY options like a fanatical fanboy would do as I am being acused of/ thought of as being ...

Last edited by terrybear; December 8, 2011 at 05:27 PM.
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