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  #31 (permalink)  
Old January 25, 2011, 10:03 AM
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Benchmarking was not the problem. I only used AS-SSD once and already had horrible results... Ran it a second time to confirm. That's how I found out that I had messed up and needed to "sanitary erase" my free space. Ran it again after that and got great benchmarks. I'm pretty careful about not killing my limited writes :)

Not 100% sure what you mean by "tony TRIM" unless you are referring to the CCleaner's "securely erase all free space."

After a bunch of reading online (before I used CCleaner), I was reading a couple articles where they did some testing and found that if you select the "single pass" option, it doesn't necessarily restore full performance and you need to use a 3-pass (sigh, lost a couple more write cycles... but it was worth it).

Either way, I know I was getting slow performance, so that's why I benched it with AS-SSD and I know that doing this 3-pass nuke on the free space restored performance and didn't touch any of the data that is supposed to be on there. The only logical answer to me is that the "free space" was not empty due to not having TRIM enabled during certain erases (i.e. quick format of windows install, non AHCI mode) and causing the slowdown. Haven't tried to benchmark it since or erase free space, but not having any real performance issues, so no need to.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old February 7, 2011, 09:48 AM
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Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old February 14, 2011, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AkG View Post

3)


If your OS is Windows 7 it will make no difference which SSD you pick as all modern SSDs are TRIM aware. Just make sure to be in AHCI mode and using either Intel RST drivers, AMD’s latest drivers OR the default MS ACHI drivers. The ONLY caveat is with AMD. AMD (unlike Intel) were late to the SSD party and only added TRIM support to their 8xx series SB controllers (e.g. 890FXA). This means earlier AMD boards will NOT pass on TRIM. If you do not understand what AHCI mode means...it will be explained in section 10.
[/I]
Is it really the case that the only AMD chipset to support trim is the 890? I was under the impression that the AMD AHCI drivers didn't support TRIM with AMD chipsets but the MS ones did.

After reading AkG's FAQ, I did some more research on this topic to see if the general consensus had changed since I did research leading up to my purchase of a Sandforce drive using an older AMD chipset, but I could only find some confusing indications that TRIM might be working with the latest AMD drivers and the 8xx chipsets. Nobody seemed to be suggesting that the MS drivers didn't support TRIM on AMD chipsets.

This post by QB the Slayer on this AMD forum page suggests that TRIM has been tested working on the 790 chipset using the MS driver but not the AMD driver as of Oct. 2010:
AMD Processors Forums - AMD AHCI Driver SSD TRIM Support

So it seems that TRIM can work with AMD systems as long as you stick with the MS driver. Of course, maybe there is other evidence that suggests otherwise... I did find some information which suggested that TRIM (working or not) doesn't really do much with SF drives anyway.

Confusing stuff.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old February 14, 2011, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draemn View Post
Benchmarking was not the problem. I only used AS-SSD once and already had horrible results... Ran it a second time to confirm. That's how I found out that I had messed up and needed to "sanitary erase" my free space. Ran it again after that and got great benchmarks. I'm pretty careful about not killing my limited writes :)

Not 100% sure what you mean by "tony TRIM" unless you are referring to the CCleaner's "securely erase all free space."

After a bunch of reading online (before I used CCleaner), I was reading a couple articles where they did some testing and found that if you select the "single pass" option, it doesn't necessarily restore full performance and you need to use a 3-pass (sigh, lost a couple more write cycles... but it was worth it).

Either way, I know I was getting slow performance, so that's why I benched it with AS-SSD and I know that doing this 3-pass nuke on the free space restored performance and didn't touch any of the data that is supposed to be on there. The only logical answer to me is that the "free space" was not empty due to not having TRIM enabled during certain erases (i.e. quick format of windows install, non AHCI mode) and causing the slowdown. Haven't tried to benchmark it since or erase free space, but not having any real performance issues, so no need to.
Tony over at OCZ is who coined the term Tony Trim (its covered in the FAQ above...the one you should have read before posting in this thread). While it is a two part process (and the second can vary in how you do it) what you are doing is basically a simplified Tony Trim (second part only)...or that is at least what it is colloquially called. HOW you do it is of no importance as 1s are 1s.

The reason you have to do it multiple times (sometimes) is because SF compresses ALL data that is written to it (remember they claim a .6x write amplification)...so even when you think it has written 1s to ALL the cells....it really hasn't as its pretty darn easy to compress data that consists of all 1s into a small'ish pkg.

As I said earlier. SF drives do what is called Lazy House cleaning. This is done on PURPOSE as the NAND they use is (usually) the lower (medium) grade MLC good for 5-8K writes instead of (the high grade) 10K MLC NAND. My guess is the controller tries to reuse as many of the "dirty" blocks as possible so it can further reduce write cycles (in addition to less writes from the compression)...but it is only a guess.

Just be careful with the heavy duty nukings.

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Originally Posted by s2g-unit View Post
Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation.
NP. Happy to help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by birthdaymonkey View Post
Is it really the case that the only AMD chipset to support trim is the 890? I was under the impression that the AMD AHCI drivers didn't support TRIM with AMD chipsets but the MS ones did.

After reading AkG's FAQ, I did some more research on this topic to see if the general consensus had changed since I did research leading up to my purchase of a Sandforce drive using an older AMD chipset, but I could only find some confusing indications that TRIM might be working with the latest AMD drivers and the 8xx chipsets. Nobody seemed to be suggesting that the MS drivers didn't support TRIM on AMD chipsets.

This post by QB the Slayer on this AMD forum page suggests that TRIM has been tested working on the 790 chipset using the MS driver but not the AMD driver as of Oct. 2010:
AMD Processors Forums - AMD AHCI Driver SSD TRIM Support

So it seems that TRIM can work with AMD systems as long as you stick with the MS driver. Of course, maybe there is other evidence that suggests otherwise... I did find some information which suggested that TRIM (working or not) doesn't really do much with SF drives anyway.

Confusing stuff.
Yup it is confusing, but AMD has stated that the only SB that they make which is guranteed to pass the TRIM command (with their own drivers and assuming all other necessary conditions are met) is the 8 series. Does this mean that the 7 cant pass on TRIM....no idea. All we no is that if you want guaranteed TRIM support with AMD rigs you need a 8 series mobo. There is so much conflicting info on MS drivers + 7 series that it could even be on a case by case basis or only some 7 series support it or its a case if ITGC kicking in and making it appear as if TRIM is "working". I personal don't intend to find out as the 7 series is getting long in the tooth. ;)
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old February 15, 2011, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AkG View Post
Yup it is confusing, but AMD has stated that the only SB that they make which is guranteed to pass the TRIM command (with their own drivers and assuming all other necessary conditions are met) is the 8 series. Does this mean that the 7 cant pass on TRIM....no idea. All we no is that if you want guaranteed TRIM support with AMD rigs you need a 8 series mobo. There is so much conflicting info on MS drivers + 7 series that it could even be on a case by case basis or only some 7 series support it or its a case if ITGC kicking in and making it appear as if TRIM is "working". I personal don't intend to find out as the 7 series is getting long in the tooth. ;)
You'll only pry my 785G / 940 BE / DDR2 rig from my cold dead hands (esp. since the 940 has no DDR3 memory controller)... at least until BD comes along. AkG, what do you know about TRIM and Sandforce drives? Is it true that the controller more or less ignores TRIM anyway? Whether it's working or not in my machine, since installing a Mushkin Callisto Deluxe 4 months ago, my WEI disk score has declined from 7.7 to 7.5 (the HORROR).
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old February 15, 2011, 07:54 PM
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Its not that it ignores it, rather it just not implement the cleaning in real time. With all other TRIM aware (and supported) SSD controllers, as soon as the TRIM command is sent to it...they carry it out. SF controllers don't. They simply update their internal map of used and unused blocks with the new data. This is done on purpose. The exact purpose has not been explicitly stated (or at least I have never seen it), but I believe it is to further reduce writes. SF will never say if or when they REuse "used" blocks as that falls under the heading of "trade secrets" but it is my beleif that this is why they do it...and also how they can claim a longer MTBF even though the NAND is not rated for as many writes as it is in other high end SSDs. ;)
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old April 27, 2011, 01:17 PM
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VERY nice guide AkG!

Quick question:
Two individual SSD's for C:/ and D:/ partitions > Two SSD in RAID 0, partitioned into C:/ and D:/?
(C:/ = OS, and D:/ = Programs/Apps)

Thx!
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old April 27, 2011, 04:11 PM
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Thank you Magnetar.

I am not a fond lover of small number of SSD's in RAID 0. With the 2nd gen SSDs it really (IMHO) only starts to really pay off when you get into the 3 or even 4 SSDs in raid 0 (I find adding in a second only nets about 85%'ish more performance...though that is changing as the newer Intel PCH's take over from the older ICH 10s). Soooo my answer is get two, make one your C the other your D. OR better yet just get ONE big arsed one and make it your C. While the dif in performance varies from minor to great depending on the controller...One large SSD > two small. This always isint feasible (especially if you already own one SSD and just want to spend a couple bucks on your upgrade) but thats always my first recommendation "get the largest SINGLE ssd you can afford, if you find you need more room...THEN go get another one".

Hope that helps :)
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old August 6, 2011, 05:17 AM
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Im looking to buy an IBuyPower PC and wondering if I buy a 40GB Intel 320 SSD will I need to buy any kind of harddrive or data drive
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Old August 8, 2011, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Brendt View Post
Im looking to buy an IBuyPower PC and wondering if I buy a 40GB Intel 320 SSD will I need to buy any kind of harddrive or data drive
40GB is pretty small for a system SSD running Win7. Most people recommend a minimum of 60GB for the OS and program files. With careful planning and organization even small SSDs can be used for booting though. Many people ran WinXP on 4GB SSDs by paring down the OS to bare essentials. The original Asus EeePC ran a form of Linux on a 2GB SSD.

You definitely will need some kind of HDD for data storage (either internal or external) unless you're extremely wealthy and can afford enough enough SSD storage to satisfy your needs.

I compromise by booting from a moderately sized (120GB) super-fast PCIe SSD, with a moderately fast moderately sized SSD for fast internal storage and a series of large external HDDs for bulk data storage.
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