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  #21 (permalink)  
Old January 11, 2011, 05:47 PM
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Good one AkG !

Very timely
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Old January 12, 2011, 03:22 AM
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Okay, I noticed you mentioned on the do nots: use hibernate.

Why not? I ask since I've been using hibernate instead of sleep because my dynamic drive can not be seen under windows if I leave the comp sleeping for a pre-determined time (2+ hours).
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Old January 12, 2011, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prolab View Post
Okay, I noticed you mentioned on the do nots: use hibernate.

Why not? I ask since I've been using hibernate instead of sleep because my dynamic drive can not be seen under windows if I leave the comp sleeping for a pre-determined time (2+ hours).
Just a guess, but perhaps it's based on the idea that you want to let ITGC do its work during idle time?
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Old January 12, 2011, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sswilson View Post
Just a guess, but perhaps it's based on the idea that you want to let ITGC do its work during idle time?

If thats the case, then me letting the 'puter idle for a few hours a week be sufficient?


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AMD Drivers for 8 series mobos can be found here (its under "Motherboard/Integrated Video Drivers", pick your OS {windows 7 32bit and 64bit only!!} then "Optional Downloads" tab. It is called "South Bridge Driver". Latest version is 10.12) :
Downloads

When i follow your instructions, all i get from the tab is this:

Which one of the 2?

NVM... click under the wrong sub folder
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Old January 12, 2011, 07:30 AM
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hmm So I don't have to worry even though I own a 790AMD system that is running 24/7 ?
Oh and good work on this confusing ( to me) SSD explanations
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Old January 12, 2011, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Shadowmeph View Post
hmm So I don't have to worry even though I own a 790AMD system that is running 24/7 ?
Oh and good work on this confusing ( to me) SSD explanations
If you mean worry about TRIM, then yes you do need to worry because as AKG explained it only works on the 800 series southbridge.

Basically you will want a drive that can do its own cleanup (Idle Time Garbage Collection), and from the reviews I have read, the Kingston SSDnows seem to be the best at that.
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Old January 24, 2011, 02:52 PM
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This is by far the best guide to SSDs that I have seen! I'm very impressed that you also cover details about setting up your SSD in Windows to improve life span/performance.

One thing that is missing though and this has to do with the reason for TRIM, ITGC, etc:
-If you have been using a drive without running GC, TRIM, done a quick format when not in your OS (i.e. re-installed the OS), or didn't have AHCI enabled, you need to manually wipe the empty blocks afaik. Basically, as pointed out above, if the controller doesn't actually delete a block (by physically writing to each cell), those cells become like dead cells and can degrade the performance of your SSD (even with TRIM). So, if for any reason you might have this scenario (usually by meeting one of the first 4 suggest criteria), you need to manually cleanse your SSD. You can use the maintenance tools as suggested above, but as long as you have ITGC or TRIM (properly) set up, you can use something like CCleaner to "(securely) wipe all free space" the long way and make it write a 0 to every cell. I know I'm not explaining it well, but basically, if in doubt, just erase all free space (a quick format isn't the same as it doesn't physically write to each cell). As with any write intensive process, you should not do this often! There should be no need to do this more than 3 times a year unless you repeatedly make mistakes (i.e. re-install your OS without properly erasing the drive first as windows will quick format the drive to re-install on).
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Old January 24, 2011, 03:51 PM
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Thank you.

As for your question. Yes and No. Yes in that if you are running a non-NTFS/fat/fat32 partition on it you may MAY run into issues, but then again if you are doing that you have bigger problems to worry about. ITGC works whether you want it to or not, as long as the partition is recognized you are fine, you just need to give it TIME. BUT

No in that ALL modern SSDs have ITGC, so the blocks will be cleaned as long as its ntfs/fat32 etc regardles of AHCI/IDE or OS used.

No in that the blocks dont become "dead blocks". They are just degraded. Degraded =/= Dead. Dead == Dead. They just need to be refreshed before they can be used.

No in doing what is basically a Tony-Trim is NOT needed. It is hard on the cells.

No in that doing a sani-erase is not needed. ITGC will work, it just takes time.

"ITGC" checks the blocks against its lookup table of what cells are still in USE. Any cells which are degraded but NOT actively being used are cleaned. IF the entire free space is degraded, than yes it will take awhile to clean, but it WILL clean it. Even if you are not in a TRIM enviro.

IF you are in a TRIM envrio "force trim" will do the trick nicely for you as you dont have to wait for ITGC (unless its a SF drive..in which case all bets are off). ;)

I'll add in a mention if Force Trim for drives used in non trim enviros that are ALSO used in TRIM envrios But here is the link in the meant time :)

Guide Here's a tool to force-TRIM your entire drive

"ITGC" works, it just works slow. Force Trim in Win 7...is faster. Either will bring a slow drive back to 85-95%'ish of its factor level performance (nothing gets 100% back).
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Old January 24, 2011, 04:24 PM
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So TRIM does work in IDE mode even though you specifically say you need AHCI mode?

Since garbage collection is *almost always* at the firmware level, it should always be on no matter what, so I can understand if GC is not affected by what I described. I'm not an expert at GC though.

TRIM on the other hand IS and I know this from benchmarking my own SSD after what I described. In my case I am using SF-1200 and afaik, there was no solution other than doing a sanitary "erase free space."
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Old January 24, 2011, 06:51 PM
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Nope BUT "ITGC" works irregardless of mode. ITGC is always on...ahci...ide mode...doesnt matter. TRIM needs AHCI, but a force trim can work for peeps who dual boot XP and Win 7 (in ahci mode)...usually. SF drives are special and the normal rules on TRIM and even ITGC to a certain extent don't really apply. They really have taken a completely different approach than all the other companies.

Reading between the lines it seems to be that you extensively benchmark'ed your SF drive (to the point it went into a degraded state...which is not all that much benchmarking to be honest) and the issue you are running into is how SandForce does its house cleaning. SF drives do what is called "lazy house cleaning" for both ITGC and TRIM. (Its a royal PITA to override this). TRIM commands sent to it...are NOT carried out in real time as they go through the "Durawrite technology" alogs, which basically means the TRIM command is noted and those cells are updated in its internal map, BUT they are not cleaned until they are NEEDED, just the internal map of what cells can and can not be reused is updated.

Basically doing a "Tony Trim" wont bring back your speed unless you run it multiple times (and even then....no guarantees) as all those 1's you are writing to what you think is the entire drive gets HEAVILY compressed and then only so many cells are used in writing the compressed data representing all 1s.

To get back the speed you lost by benchmarking indiscriminately a sani-erase is needed OR letting the damn drive idle for a long time. A Sani-erase is not a good thing as it nukes the internal map the drive has collected and resets the drive back square one (the upside is that a TRIM command that is then sent during the quick format DOES refreshen all the cells, the downside is all those used cells can not be reused and thus increasing the future write amplification up from .5/.6 to 1 or greater). This is why the various companies say DONT benchmark them using non-compressible data (like CDM and AS-SSD) as it is not only noncompressible...its random crap that the durawrite alogs cant really use to lessen future writes. This is why peeps usually dont notice slow downs UNLESS they benchmark.


Edited to add in replies to previous questions I didnt see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowmeph View Post
hmm So I don't have to worry even though I own a 790AMD system that is running 24/7 ?
Oh and good work on this confusing ( to me) SSD explanations
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prolab View Post
Okay, I noticed you mentioned on the do nots: use hibernate.

Why not? I ask since I've been using hibernate instead of sleep because my dynamic drive can not be seen under windows if I leave the comp sleeping for a pre-determined time (2+ hours).
Its not whether or not you CAN use hibernate...its why bother? SSDs allow for insanely fast bootups so the dif in time between a "cold" boot and a hibernate wakeup doesn't justify the added space taken up by it. PLUS every time you use hibernate thats a crap ton of NAND cells that are going to be used...for no real gains. The name of the game is to lessen wasted writes and Hibernate can EASILY be consider a waste. YMMV, and you can use hibernate...I just dont recommend it.

If your SSD is a SF based drive...update the firmware!! That was a bug that was fixed in (IIRC) 1.24 for OCZ and 3.4.0 for the others. It can cause random BSODs upon waking from Sleep. (the fix might have been in slightly earlier 1.2x versions cant remember).

Sleep =/= idle time. You need to let the system IDLE and walk away from it. A couple hours a week will be fine.

You have an older AMD rig. You need to let it idle, or the rig will get slow. You dont have to go "OMFG I needz a new SSD" or anything just let your system idle.
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Last edited by AkG; January 24, 2011 at 07:07 PM.
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