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Old November 30, 2010, 10:00 AM
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I agree CM, actually suggested if it were possible that our main page charts were updated so people can use those comparisons when certain technologies aren't compared (ex old cpu vs new cpu).
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Old November 30, 2010, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMetaphor View Post
Looks like Someone's site has already got something useful, just not this site.

TBH i dont know what trim and garbage collection are. But until i can buy a few SSDs and raid them without having to worry about such nonsense, ill stick to real hard drives.
Trim is a software command that keeps SSDs running at peak performance. It's required due to the way that blocks of information are written to the storage media. Over time, unless some form of maintenance is carried out on an SSD its performance will degrade. Not the same thing, but think of it like a defrag for digital storage media.

In layman's terms Trim is a software feature that requires three things to work... 1/ Trim capable OS (Win7), 2/ Chipset drivers that will pass the trim command to the drive, 3/ Firmware on the SSD that understands the Trim command. If any of those three conditions are not met, trim will not work.

Garbage collection OTOH is a stand-alone feature of the SSD which carries out mostly the same function during idle time on the drive. Some SSDs have much better garbage collection functions and thus would be best for SSDs in a raid configuration.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old November 30, 2010, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sswilson View Post
Trim is a software command that keeps SSDs running at peak performance. It's required due to the way that blocks of information are written to the storage media. Over time, unless some form of maintenance is carried out on an SSD its performance will degrade. Not the same thing, but think of it like a defrag for digital storage media.

In layman's terms Trim is a software feature that requires three things to work... 1/ Trim capable OS (Win7), 2/ Chipset drivers that will pass the trim command to the drive, 3/ Firmware on the SSD that understands the Trim command. If any of those three conditions are not met, trim will not work.

Garbage collection OTOH is a stand-alone feature of the SSD which carries out mostly the same function during idle time on the drive. Some SSDs have much better garbage collection functions and thus would be best for SSDs in a raid configuration.
Thanks for the info sswilson!

So from what I understand then, it is possible that someday SSDs in a raid configuration will just need to have garbage collection working on each drive, an no other requirements? For example, if said SSD existed, where only garbage collection (thats built-in) would be required, then I could use an SSD for an older PC running linux? So long as there is a sata port it would work as a conventional drive? If thats the case, then that's the ideal that all SSDs should be striving for. None of this "needing three requirements to make trim work maybe" stuff, lol.
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Old November 30, 2010, 11:18 AM
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Right now, ANY drive that has self-maintenance routines (aka "ITGC") can be used in RAID, which basically is every 2nd gen SSD out there. Just let the system idle from time to time and you are golden. HOWEVER, some controllers are better at it than others and clean themselves up faster. SF < Intel < Indilinx < Toshiba < JM in terms of how FAST they clean themselves...BUT in terms of speed when they are in a degraded state its SF > Intel > Indilinx > Toshiba > JM. SF is getting better and better at degraded state mgmt AND getting out of it faster.

A SF based drive in a degraded state is still faster than a clean Indilinx drive (think Vertex 1), and TBH the latest firmware is getting pretty good. Still not great at getting it OUT of a degraded state but still much better than the earlier firmwares.

IF you want to play around with Raid and SSDs, Indilinx (cheap option) or SF ($$ option) is what I would go with. Indi's as they are so darn GOOD at keeping themselves clean (and have a very mature firmware) and can be picked up used cheaply. SF with full speed firmware (think Vertex 2, Mushkin Callisto Deluxe, GKill Phonix Pro) as they are BEASTS and the more you stick in the array the lower the impact of being in a degraded state is. Hell stick 6 of them in a RAID 0...and I doubt you would even notice if they were "dirty" or not :)~
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Old November 30, 2010, 12:06 PM
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Interesting points AkG, thanks!

However, the point of this topic would be to put all the info everyone gives into one concise chart that can be easily understood. This chart could be expanded to include things like "Avg speed in degraded state" and such in order to better help all the members here understand what to expect if they buy a particular model. I, for one, might consider such a Raid setup if/when a chart with my options would be available. Not to sound disrespectful, but you just gave me 3 or more options that you say are essentially the same? Are they or are they not? In a chart the differences between them would be more obvious, no?
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Old November 30, 2010, 12:30 PM
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Unlike HDDs with SSDs the name on the outside doesnt mean much; its the NAND and controller INSIDE that counts (and the firmware of course!).

Basically a Vertex 2 120Gb is the same as a GSkill Phoneix Pro 120Gb which is the same as the Mushkin Callisto Deluxe. They all have the same SF1200 controller in them. They all use the EXACT same NAND and all are "full speed" firmware enabled drives. OCZ are faster on firmware updates and GREAT at Customer Service, but other than intangibles like that the only real way to chose one of those 3 is by PRICE. ;)

Where I have used and tested so many of them I'm very mercenary in my outlook and don't really have any brand loyalty. I pick the one that has the best warranty (if that is a concern for a given build) or the one with the best price. IF all are the same price I then default to OCZ as they have the best CS going on SSDs and deserve to be rewarded for that...when its feasable. ;)
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Old December 2, 2010, 06:11 PM
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So do all NEW drives that use the new Sandforce controlllers have ITGC? SF-1200 or SF-1222? Differences?

Me still wants a chart, lol.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old December 2, 2010, 06:15 PM
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ALL modern SSD controllers have self maintenance routines built in.

The chart is on my "to do list"....I will hopefully get some time in a couple days to sit down and do one up. but no guarantees. All I can say is as soon as I CAN...I WILL. :)
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Old December 2, 2010, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AkG View Post
ALL modern SSD controllers have self maintenance routines built in.

The chart is on my "to do list"....I will hopefully get some time in a couple days to sit down and do one up. but no guarantees. All I can say is as soon as I CAN...I WILL. :)
So then my dream might be coming true? I can but a stack of small (40-60gb) SSDs with ITGC and raid-0 em on my needs-to-get-flashed Perc 6i for some astounding numbers? Without the worry for degrading performance as long as i let the system remain and idle once in a while and leave 20-30% of free space on the array ( or each disk rather)?

Sorry for all my questions, my education is progressing though!
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Old December 2, 2010, 06:33 PM
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Basically yes. The SF drives need more than most to keep themselves clean but you got the basic idea :)

And NP. Always glad to help when I can.
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