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  #21 (permalink)  
Old August 11, 2010, 01:05 PM
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No performance loss over several weeks??? That's hardly comforting.... :)

At least OCZ is on the ball and talking about a toolkit. When/If there is a stand-alone tool that can be scheduled to run on a weekly basis, the lack of trim support will be mostly moot. From my limited knowledge, I think I'd actually prefer a scheduled tool over 24/7 trim support as I'm a little bit concerned about what trim is going to do to SSD read/write cycles over the lifetime of the drive.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old August 11, 2010, 01:56 PM
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Sorry guys havent been around much lately.

Just to clear up a couple things before I get to the OP questions.

A) The last time i checked AMD doesnt pass on the TRIM command. Its a combination of controller and driver issues. Some have had luck with MS drivers and AMD controller....but it is a crap shoot at this point.
B) SF controllers may indeed be a bit more resistant then most to getting into a degraded state but this has more to do with their massive over-provisioning then anything. Their built in self maintenance routines out and out suck. Even without resorting to IOMeter I can get a SF drive into a degraded state in a non TRIM environment in an afternoon.
C) The rumour is OCZ is developing a toolkit to do a manual trim. No idea IF this is correct or even IF this is nothing but people confusing the OCZ Toolbox which doesnt have this feature in it (or at least doesnt right now)
D) Even in a degrade mode a SF drive is still fast and powerful. Many people will probably not notice the difference. Honestly in degrade mode you are still looking at (worst case scenario I personally experienced) mid to high 20's on 4k
E) If you are not running the latest SF firmware and are using the MS drivers EVEN on Intel kit.....update the firmware. There is a chance that you could get into a degrade state because the MS drivers are not 100% compliant...and the SF controller expects it to be! SF has done a kludge to overcome the typical MS half arse'd implementation, so except for a minor hit in performance compared to Intel RST drivers their is no down side to MS drivers now.

To the OP:
SF and AMD wouldnt be my first choice by a LOONG margin but now that you own it......Enjoy the drive. Dont worry to much about things. Let the system idle when you are not using it. IF you let it idle everyday for a bit you should be fine. The "ITGC" (incorrect term but meh everyone uses it!) may be VERY mild and thus as slow as a Forest Gump doing Chinese Math....but it does work if you give it time. No need to do anything special, just dont put the system into sleep right away. Let it ilde and let the scree saver kick in for a while and you will be fine.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old August 11, 2010, 04:18 PM
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Yay, thanks for the feedback AkG :)

Theres just one more thing bugging me, do I go for the AMD os MS driver??? Since I don't have to worry about TRIM, shall I go AMD??? O the MS driver is still better???

Cheers...
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old August 11, 2010, 05:38 PM
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Judging by AkG's post, don't think it matters what driver you use. My thinking is though that maybe, just MAYBE, AMD will be able to get TRIM into their own drivers. If the chipset isn't compatible with the MS drivers, they can't fix that. We can only hope that AMD can make some drivers to fix it.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old August 11, 2010, 06:08 PM
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Id use the AMD drivers and update it every time AMD comes out with an update. I'm sure at some point they will get their act together.

Its not like any are bad performance wise, so I doubt you would notice differences (outside synth tests) between brand X and brand Y drivers. ;)
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old August 11, 2010, 06:34 PM
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Think of it like this. When you first installed WinXp (or Win7, it doesn't matter) your system may not have recognized your video card (or your hard drive...) so it loaded the M$ default ones. You still saw an image on screen. It might not have been the prettiest, but there was an image. This applies to SSD's too.

AMD botching the passing of TRIM commands via their drivers when they overwrite the standard M$ drivers. This is is a totally separate issue. That is single handed AMD (and nVidia, and every other secondhand driver for chipsets) screwing up.

Standard drivers always 'work'. That is why you can load windows without any drivers, and get to the desktop your first install. That is why M$ has made trillions over the years. As funny as it is to say, they made it work for ease of use. The drivers they chose for 'default' might not be working as good as the newest drivers out today, or to near 100% of the chipsets capability, but when you're already working with a botched chipset (or secondhand drivers in the case of AMD), who cares?

At least by using the default M$ drivers, TRIM works. Right? What are we after by using 2nd hand drivers? AMD functionality built into the drivers? At the cost of TRIM? How does this differ then any other choice made by consumers? Sure, AMD is still at fault, but so is the consumer for choosing it then, in my opinion. We all pick our own poison. I wanted i7 for Hyperthreading, turbo boost, and performance, others chose AMD for cost savings, even though it lacked these functions.

Lack of research (or rather lack of finding a solution if research was done) does not a crisis make.

I hope that makes sense.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old August 12, 2010, 04:34 AM
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Well THAT is the thing sagath. No one knows if it is just the drivers or the controller firmware. There are "3rd party" controllers which can support AHCI which dont pass on the TRIM command. So it may take a firmware update as well before AMD gets their shite together. No idea. They may already have done so as I haven't been paying that close of attention lately to them. The last I heard there was a LOT of conflicting information so "lack of research" is not the problem in the OP's case. AMD themselves are being extremely evasive and are not helping things. Even if you submit a ticket directly to them....they will just brush you off. This leads me to believe it has not been fixed, but I am extremely conservative by nature and until their is 100% hard proof (CDM, then IOM to degrade it and then CDM again showing no dif) the safest answer is: assume its not working.

Luckily, most of the "best bang for your buck" SSDs have kick ass self maintenance making it a null issue for most.

In the OP's case it sounds like his first modern SSD (or maybe even first SSD period) so even IF it gets into a degraded state it will be fast. If he lets it idle as often as he can.....mild ITGC or not, it will stay out of it and be faster. TBH, I doubt most first time users will notice much of a difference between "fast" and "OMFG fast".

IF the OP is really, really concerned about it......treat it like an old pre-trim SSD. Run "tony trim" on it once a month. See if you notice a dif. If you do.... 1 extra cell life usage a month (or even a week) will NOT matter, just dont run it everday. ;)
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old August 12, 2010, 04:40 AM
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So is there a good freeware app that will actually test to see if trim is working AkG? That in my mind is one of the biggest obstacles in this whole fiasco. There are conflicting reports, and no real way for the average joe to verify.

edit: and yeah... AMD is certainly not be forthcoming on the subject at all. As I've already mentioned in this thread... their response to a ticket questioning trim support was to contact the motherboard manufacturer.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old August 12, 2010, 04:47 AM
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Havent come across any, sorry. It is not something you can just poll the OS and see if it is "working". It would need to test it somehow (which doable isnt as easy as executing a call command). The OS can say "yup im passing ye olde trim command on....your good!!" ....but that doesnt mean squat if the controller, drivers or even the SSD itself cant get it or pass it on. Its a 4 step chain. OS -> Driver ->controller ->SSD controller. ANY missing link means no TRIM.

What is needed is a addition at the SSD firmware level. A good old tilt bit. IF it has executed a TRIM command...its a 1. Add in a time stamp for last time it was executed. THEN we would know for sure!!
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old August 12, 2010, 04:51 AM
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Did you see that microsoft link I put up? Have you had a chance to get a look at that particular tool? If I'm reading it right, it looks like it would do something like write to a particular block / page, run the trim command, and then verify that the block / page has been affected by the trim command.

Unfortuantely, it also looks like it might be a data-destructive test.
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