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Old January 13, 2014, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Birk View Post
When i went to the "start" menu which is a stretch to even call it that, I saw Metro UI, I started typing and even got as far as typing "Windows Update" and there was nothing found. so sorry you didn't solve either of my issues.
Works for me? I'm not sure what the issue is on your end. I can take a picture to show you it working...?

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Originally Posted by sswilson View Post
- Heh.. I don't consider myself a tin foil hatter on the subject, but no... cloud computing is not something I consider to be a benefit until such time as they make a legally binding statement ensuring that none of my cloud storage is either in, or travels through the US.

- Pausing data transfers is cool, and useful, I'll give you that.

- Multi-monitor / taskbar support is also useful but I'm not willing to give up my start button for it.

- More intuitive access to the full apps screen in 8.1 is a welcome improvement, but no, sorry it's not a replacement for the nested start menu. (And no... the only thing I things I've ever searched for are command line executables... ;) ).

- The only thing the charms menu has ever done for me is p' me off when it's popped up without my requesting it. :)

Most of the "improvements" you've suggested are based on metro, and I'm sorry, but I just don't see that it's in any way an improvement on a desktop system. 8.1 has made using the OS bearable, but again, I don't see any value added to my desktop experience at all.
First; You're doing it again; The start menu exists in every functional way as Windows 7, even though you're telling me it doesnt. I just explained, linked a youtube video AND linked an article showing it is there and works the exact same...

Right click gives you all your access to CMD, Control Panel, Device manager, etc etc etc. And a click on it pulls up the "Apps" Metro, which lists all of your installed programs. I dont see any difference between this and windows 7 start menu?


Where is the downside? Win 8 is windows 7 (once configured with a few simple clicks).

This totally reminds me of the XP to 7 switch days btw So many people back then said the same thing, and a few select people said its fine...and now no one even looks back!
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old January 13, 2014, 04:07 PM
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Heh... everything he's showing in the video is based on using two monitors... I use a single monitor and don't want a full screen start menu... what's so hard to understand about that? :)

What I end up with is the wall of icons on my desktop (or pinned to the taskbar) that I've spent years trying to convince folks to avoid, and only going to the all apps screen for things I almost never use.

OTOH, I hadn't paid much attention to the options allowing me to turn off hot corners and will disable those next time I'm playing with my win8 PCs. :) (At least you know I looked at your links and watched the vid... :) ).

Don't get me wrong... 8.1 has made enough improvements that I wouldn't automatically try to install win7 if I got a new PC with it installed, but it still doesn't offer enough incentive for me to want to upgrade my current win7 PCs.
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Old January 13, 2014, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birk View Post
When i went to the "start" menu which is a stretch to even call it that, I saw Metro UI, I started typing and even got as far as typing "Windows Update" and there was nothing found. so sorry you didn't solve either of my issues.
You're on a tech forum and can't find Windows Update? If you got update problems, I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems but Windows Update ain't one.

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Originally Posted by sswilson View Post
- Heh.. I don't consider myself a tin foil hatter on the subject, but no... cloud computing is not something I consider to be a benefit until such time as they make a legally binding statement ensuring that none of my cloud storage is either in, or travels through the US.
There's a difference between cloud computing and cloud storage.
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Old January 13, 2014, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by headsh0t View Post
You're on a tech forum and can't find Windows Update? If you got update problems, I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems but Windows Update ain't one.



There's a difference between cloud computing and cloud storage.
You're correct, I misspoke. OTOH, Cloud computing has even less draw for me than the clear benefits that something like skydrive (or google's sync features) could provide if I didn't care about routing everything on my PC through the NSA voluntarily. :)
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old January 13, 2014, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sswilson View Post
Really? That's funny because my personal experience has been just the polar opposite. Every question I get from friends / family is related to either wanting to purchase a new PC with win 7 vice win 8, or how to remove win 8 after the fact if they've already purchased a new PC/Laptop. This is without any prior coaching on my part (in case you think my personal views are biasing their opinion of win8).
Our personal experiences are not relevant. This is a global issue impacting how billions access information. The greatest decline in PC sales ever which is accurately described as a crisis has been analyzed to death. It is extremely serious to all players in the PC business. That the touch interface of Windows 8.x drove users away from desktop PCs is an extremely fringe conclusion. In fact, Windows 8.x has not done enough to replicate an easy, low-cost, worry-free, snappy tablet experience to keep those users.

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Originally Posted by mattlef View Post
I needed to point this out. They are not abandoning it at all. Personal Computing is evolving, they are just changing how they use technology as a whole. Its not being abandoned, the use case is the same, just being form factor of the device has changed/evolved.
When I say a general purpose computer, I am describing a computer that can be effective in a large variety of roles at a professional level. I do not regard new age personal computers such as smartphones and tablets as general purpose. They are consumer level devices optimized for consumption. I do agree that they are definitely personal computers.

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Originally Posted by sswilson View Post
I'd argue that the casual user never really should have been part of the desktop market, it's just that tech did not exist at the time to serve their needs.
We all benefited from commodity PCs through greatly reduced prices. However, I think the general purpose PC has been a nightmare for users who are not technically inclined. It's not surprising they want out.

Quote:
Desktop/Business and casual use are two completely different beasts, and IMO need two completely different OS's.
Yes and no. Those average users, the non-technically inclined represent most people. Including professional and business users. There is a lot of reason to believe Microsoft is as vulnerable in business as they were exposed to be in the consumer market. Workstation and advanced development functions are not required for most business users.

Whatever the case may be, Microsoft is not expected to reduce touch in Windows 9. It will be even more consumer friendly.

On the really bright side, this is the last Windows developed under Ballmer. The future of Microsoft and therefore Windows after 9 is impossible to predict at the moment. It's not impossible significant portions of Microsoft may be spun out under new leadership. I personally doubt that because Gates (and Ballmer) will have a big say in the selection of Ballmer's replacement.
  #26 (permalink)  
Old January 13, 2014, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Desiato View Post
Our personal experiences are not relevant. This is a global issue impacting how billions access information. The greatest decline in PC sales ever which is accurately described as a crisis has been analyzed to death. It is extremely serious to all players in the PC business. That the touch interface of Windows 8.x drove users away from desktop PCs is an extremely fringe conclusion. In fact, Windows 8.x has not done enough to replicate an easy, low-cost, worry-free, snappy tablet experience to keep those users.



When I say a general purpose computer, I am describing a computer that can be effective in a large variety of roles at a professional level. I do not regard new age personal computers such as smartphones and tablets as general purpose. They are consumer level devices optimized for consumption. I do agree that they are definitely personal computers.



We all benefited from commodity PCs through greatly reduced prices. However, I think the general purpose PC has been a nightmare for users who are not technically inclined. It's not surprising they want out.

Yes and no. Those average users, the non-technically inclined represent most people. Including professional and business users. There is a lot of reason to believe Microsoft is as vulnerable in business as they were exposed to be in the consumer market. Workstation and advanced development functions are not required for most business users.

Whatever the case may be, Microsoft is not expected to reduce touch in Windows 9. It will be even more consumer friendly.

On the really bright side, this is the last Windows developed under Ballmer. The future of Microsoft and therefore Windows after 9 is impossible to predict at the moment. It's not impossible significant portions of Microsoft may be spun out under new leadership. I personally doubt that because Gates (and Ballmer) will have a big say in the selection of Ballmer's replacement.
But that's the irony of this whole debacle from a desktop user's perspective...

I've used windows7 tablets w/ their kludged proprietary touch interfaces and would have been ecstatic to see win8 ship with the ability to improve that experience. What I couldn't accept was the loss of functionality at the desktop that came with their decision to attempt a "one OS experience to rule them all" solution.

Metro would have been perfectly fine on a desktop PC if it were either a user selectable skin which left the desktop experience untouched until launched, or (if active full time) had been a completely separate choice on install.

Metro wasn't the problem, it was the attempt to blend it with the desktop environment that was.

It's all rumour ATM of course, but if they're to be believed we're going to end up with our traditional desktop environment back. If they want to keep metro around for when I want to use it then more power to them.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old January 13, 2014, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sswilson View Post
But that's the irony of this whole debacle from a desktop user's perspective...

I've used windows7 tablets w/ their kludged proprietary touch interfaces and would have been ecstatic to see win8 ship with the ability to improve that experience. What I couldn't accept was the loss of functionality at the desktop that came with their decision to attempt a "one OS experience to rule them all" solution.

Metro would have been perfectly fine on a desktop PC if it were either a user selectable skin which left the desktop experience untouched until launched, or (if active full time) had been a completely separate choice on install.

Metro wasn't the problem, it was the attempt to blend it with the desktop environment that was.
Agreed. Mouse and keyboard input just differs too far from finger touch input and as such will create a poor user experience for both if the OS is trying to cater to both platforms.

I just can't see them being able to pull off a successful touch friendly interface that is also productive for a desktop, and vice-versa.

Give us an updated windows 7 and I'll happily upgrade. I find 8/8.1 frustrating to use comparatively and thus have been staying with 7.

Ready for another let down, hopefully they exceed my expectations.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old January 13, 2014, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by sswilson View Post
But that's the irony of this whole debacle from a desktop user's perspective...

I've used windows7 tablets w/ their kludged proprietary touch interfaces and would have been ecstatic to see win8 ship with the ability to improve that experience. What I couldn't accept was the loss of functionality at the desktop that came with their decision to attempt a "one OS experience to rule them all" solution.

Metro would have been perfectly fine on a desktop PC if it were either a user selectable skin which left the desktop experience untouched until launched, or (if active full time) had been a completely separate choice on install.

Metro wasn't the problem, it was the attempt to blend it with the desktop environment that was.

It's all rumour ATM of course, but if they're to be believed we're going to end up with our traditional desktop environment back. If they want to keep metro around for when I want to use it then more power to them.
I'm still not understanding the issues.

Everyone here is asking for a way to remove the metro and have a desktop experience a-la Windows 7. You Can. Why is this so hard to get across to everyone?

It. Works. It is 100% possible in windows 8.1, with a matter of about FIVE mouse clicks.

How much clearer can I be?
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old January 13, 2014, 05:16 PM
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The start screen is still full screen and part of metro, but again, that's no longer a deal breaker for me under win 8.1 and I'll learn to live with it, but I currently see no reason to upgrade my win7 rigs. I did chose to install it on my two mITX builds so I'm no longer a hater. :)

OTOH, if win9 were to ship with the underlying improvements of win8 but still allow me to keep my desktop environment untouched by the metro start screen and things like dual file associations I'd be all over it. :)
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old January 13, 2014, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Sagath View Post
I'm still not understanding the issues.

Everyone here is asking for a way to remove the metro and have a desktop experience a-la Windows 7. You Can. Why is this so hard to get across to everyone?
You can? Can I have it so that I literely NEVER see the Apps/"Start"(used lightly), Metro UI appears for even a minute?

Can you show me how to get the Start menu to not be a full screen apps UI but actually a windows 7 style nested menu system?

The stuff I saw in that video was about a full screen apps UI when you click where a start MENU should be, and about nesting metro apps allover your screen like they're worth looking at?....

Please show us how to 100% disable any occurrence of the Metro UI from windows 8.
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