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  #31 (permalink)  
Old October 5, 2012, 04:42 AM
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Waiting for the heat and power to drop for similar performance on AMD stuff. I have done the research for the things I do and I am waiting for AMD.

I have friends who work at AMD...if it were a tie between Intel and AMD, I would buy AMD for that reason alone.

Strike 1: Performance in encoding and folding is not good enough
Strike 2: Hotter
Strike 3: More electricity needed for the task

AMD is out at my ballpark.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old October 5, 2012, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by terrybear View Post
I read what I have bolded & all i can say is ....... WOW ..... are YOU for real? Do you ACTUALY read things & use stuff in real time to be able to formulate these "views" you have?

Also your "theory" on this how both companies try to make you upgrade your motherboard .. Pardon me but WHOM makes the motherboards? NEITHER company does !! Its the board makers themselves that try to do so by not putting bios's out on older products that might support a newer cpu.

Your other argument is also flawed with the fact that how long is ivy bridge 1155 out for ... ohhhh till next year to be replaces by 1150 OHHH & its nothing real new as it's STILL based on the Core's architechure ("Haswell processors or the fourth generation Core processors as some like to call them") .... meanwhile FM2's supported for the next few years ... OH but there's no value in that ...

Im sorry but I dont understand why ya bother to reply to anything amd cpu/board based cause quite honestly you show no ability to see any positives in them & refuse to accept anyone whom puts/see's a positive aspect on things on the platform. Trying to discuss/debate things in reguards to the amd platform in general is about as sucessful as tryin to demolish a brick wall with a rubber sledgehammer. I believe you have given your reasons in the past ... but if your unwilling to be able to talk about both the positives & negatives about it ... why waste your time or anyone elses then ?

All i know is my stance at the end of the day is AGAIN based on US the consumer ..... no amd & we are back to the late 90's pricing & no motivation to advance/evolve. I also dont see having to have "trim" enabled in a chipset as some MAJOR reason for the average joe consumer to choose intel over a amd solution especialy if the ssd's do so on there own in themselves. And more so, no one in there right mind is gonna be thinking about "raid" on a i3 configuration

Sorry but again i dont see the current landscape as like per back in the days of socket 7 like how your refering to current amd cpu's like the cyrix/ibm's of back then vs intels like the AMD/intels of that era ..
Actually Terry, if there is anyone whom has tested SSD's to the Max on both platforms it will be AkG. It is him alone who spend countless PM's with me getting my SSD's to trim (abiet tony trim) on my X6 rig since it did not pass along the command. That has for a lot of people been a point of contention, and many of us here, and MANY of those whom visit take AkG's advise when it comes to such things very seriously. There are work arounds (Drives with really aggressive ITGC) but that then limits the drives at your disposal.

So yes, he does use these items in real time, and has worked with and seen more SSD's on platforms than you or anyone else here ever will. Unless of course you want to Prove to HWC here that AMD suddenly has full Trim support across previous and existing platforms, including RAID...

Plus lets not forget that it took the FX platform to finally bring back SLI offical support on there boards.
That is an isolationist move on AMD that many as well did not forgive.

-ST
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old October 5, 2012, 05:50 AM
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I find the argument is quite hollow in many ways and lacks substance.

I fail to see why a user should be happy with a processor that's "fast enough" when there's an alternate option, with better performance within a few dollars. AMD has cut some extensions out of their Bulldozer and Piledriver architecture and that limits performance in some applications. When you hit one of those -and yes, they may be older extensions-, the performance degradation can be substantial.

On the other hand, I find the GPU argument is partially mute and at worst, completely off-base. Any video transcoder worth a damn has OpenCL acceleration which means performance benefits for AMD, NVIDIA and Intel. Due to their architecture, most video transcoders actually work BETTER on the Intel HD4000 IGPs than they do on AMD's new Trinity processors. Essentially, anything that supports OpenCL should work on any of Intel's new IGPs, provided it has the necessary support through their SDK and drivers.

Meanwhile, if you DO care about gaming, you won't be using an IGP anyways...in which case AMD's APUs (for the time being at least) are a very poor choice from a perf / $ standpoint.

Where AMD excels however is looking into the future and seeing where the CPU segment is going: towards on-chip integration. Right now, they are fighting an uphill battle as their architecture is geared towards software changes that won't become a reality for a few years at least. This means taking a performance hit now while laying the groundwork for future generations. And let's be honest, the future doesn't care about serial processing, parallelism is where its at.

What people DO however seem to forget is that AMD's Athlon and upcoming Vishera non-APU products will offer a phenomenal price / perf ratio for budget-minded gamers and general computing users. For the time being though, I think the APUs are simply ahead of their time and may have an issue finding traction in the desktop market. In the mobile space though.....that's another story.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old October 5, 2012, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soultribunal View Post
Actually Terry, if there is anyone whom has tested SSD's to the Max on both platforms it will be AkG. It is him alone who spend countless PM's with me getting my SSD's to trim (abiet tony trim) on my X6 rig since it did not pass along the command. That has for a lot of people been a point of contention, and many of us here, and MANY of those whom visit take AkG's advise when it comes to such things very seriously. There are work arounds (Drives with really aggressive ITGC) but that then limits the drives at your disposal.

So yes, he does use these items in real time, and has worked with and seen more SSD's on platforms than you or anyone else here ever will. Unless of course you want to Prove to HWC here that AMD suddenly has full Trim support across previous and existing platforms, including RAID...

Plus lets not forget that it took the FX platform to finally bring back SLI offical support on there boards.
That is an isolationist move on AMD that many as well did not forgive.

-ST
If you or akg could pass on this info on trim on the X6 I would greatly apreciate it so i could see so myself.

As for this discussion .... again it just chaps me something fierce that somehow intel is some kinda standard setter when the reality is it should be NEITHER company seen as such. And while peaple want to keep drawing on amd's "baby steps" to evolve it doesnt help them too by calling ALL there cpu/chipsets "crap" when there not & do funtion fine for general users.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old October 5, 2012, 06:00 AM
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Wow such a heated debate.

I may be wrong, but most agree, but still camp their ground.

Most of us want AMD to perform better and want to encourage competition. For some (most of us I guess), the current situation is such that AMD is not a worthwhile option. But bear in mind, HWC does not represent the average Joe and its normal for most of HWCers to prefer Intel over AMD granted how things are currently.

Depending on our needs and priorities, Intel may (usually is) the way to go simply because AMD failed to improve enough. If Bulldozer was a - more - decent improvement over Phenom II (but still behind Intel) I'm quite sure more of us would go for it. But the fact is that we know that for the most part, if you go for Bulldozer, you choose to buy something that is the equivalent of a few years old processor. That doesn't compute with enthusiast, which is why here Intel is the way to go.

I do not consider myself as a real fanboi, but if I had to chose between 2 similar processors and everything was equal, but the small guy was a little underperforming, I'd go for the little guy (granted there was some sort of advantage for my wallet). But as it is now, I'd choose Intel because of how I know I use my computer.

Back to the point, for average Joe, I don't think it matters much. A few months ago, my cousin asked me for a suggestion for a cheap laptop to do basic office, web browsing stuff and that would be plugged most of the time. All I told her is not to get Atom, C-series or Zacate, but anything else would do fine for her needs independently of the price. I don't think she complained at all, because that is what the average Joe needs: something cheap that works. The rest is not important.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old October 5, 2012, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL View Post
What people DO however seem to forget is that AMD's Athlon and upcoming Vishera non-APU products will offer a phenomenal price / perf ratio for budget-minded gamers and general computing users. For the time being though, I think the APUs are simply ahead of their time and may have an issue finding traction in the desktop market. In the mobile space though.....that's another story.
I was thinking this earlier this am when I made my last post. If AMD is to survive, they will need to sell lots of laptop/mobile chips. They don't have to focus on folders and hardcore transcoders to make some good money and great products.

I get 20-30 a year asking me for advice on computer 'upgrades'; out of those, I would say now only2-4 of those people are looking to a desktop at all...they are all looking for laptops for general use. When I ask them what they want to do, there is very little gaming and possibly some transcoding (ie. putting some videos on a smartphone).

So, with my typical usage, I find that the typical user for me has the following requirements:

1. General use (internet)
2. Mild gaming (if at all)
3. Some transcoding (people tend to have some software like Nero for taking videos and compressing/transcoding for use in a mobile phone)
4. Quiet, and cool
5. $500-$700 range

I italicized the quient and cool, because I believe that a cool laptop is less likely to have reliability issues in the future. Fols at home will place these laptops on well, their laps, beds, etc. Remember, these are teens older folks using these machines. While I always suggest a laptop cooler, the cooler will only get used often times when the laptop sits on a desk...

So with my suggestions above, I typically still fall back to an Intel i3 or i5 setup. So seriously (I am not being coy), how does AMD compete on the above now? I am especially concerned about #3 and #4 in my list above. I have not looked at AMD in ages, so I am honestly looking for a good review or comparison here with regards to the latest AMD stuff.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old October 5, 2012, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL View Post
I find the argument is quite hollow in many ways and lacks substance.

I fail to see why a user should be happy with a processor that's "fast enough" when there's an alternate option, with better performance within a few dollars. AMD has cut some extensions out of their Bulldozer and Piledriver architecture and that limits performance in some applications. When you hit one of those -and yes, they may be older extensions-, the performance degradation can be substantial.

On the other hand, I find the GPU argument is partially mute and at worst, completely off-base. Any video transcoder worth a damn has OpenCL acceleration which means performance benefits for AMD, NVIDIA and Intel. Due to their architecture, most video transcoders actually work BETTER on the Intel HD4000 IGPs than they do on AMD's new Trinity processors. Essentially, anything that supports OpenCL should work on any of Intel's new IGPs, provided it has the necessary support through their SDK and drivers.

Meanwhile, if you DO care about gaming, you won't be using an IGP anyways...in which case AMD's APUs (for the time being at least) are a very poor choice from a perf / $ standpoint.

Where AMD excels however is looking into the future and seeing where the CPU segment is going: towards on-chip integration. Right now, they are fighting an uphill battle as their architecture is geared towards software changes that won't become a reality for a few years at least. This means taking a performance hit now while laying the groundwork for future generations. And let's be honest, the future doesn't care about serial processing, parallelism is where its at.

What people DO however seem to forget is that AMD's Athlon and upcoming Vishera non-APU products will offer a phenomenal price / perf ratio for budget-minded gamers and general computing users. For the time being though, I think the APUs are simply ahead of their time and may have an issue finding traction in the desktop market. In the mobile space though.....that's another story.
Thank you for the responce to this thread as well as pointing out both the negatives but also the positives that are going on with amd & future computing. I agree with the bolded words & think this is what the A series & non from amd are going towards cpu architechurewise.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old October 5, 2012, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terrybear View Post
If you or akg could pass on this info on trim on the X6 I would greatly apreciate it so i could see so myself.

As for this discussion .... again it just chaps me something fierce that somehow intel is some kinda standard setter when the reality is it should be NEITHER company seen as such. And while peaple want to keep drawing on amd's "baby steps" to evolve it doesnt help them too by calling ALL there cpu/chipsets "crap" when there not & do funtion fine for general users.
You , on your Chronos (which is what I have too) do not need to worry so much as the ITGC is agressive enough to not have degradation to the same level as say other drives (half the reason AkG got me the drive) because well, I still have AMD in the house. However I will dig for my notes when I am not at work and forward them to you. Might take a while, I have around 10K on the PM side.

Evolution however Terry does not include Dropping offical support of multi-GPU in order to gain customer base. Sorry, but that for many of us when their chipsets were no longer supporting SLI found that a bitter pill to swallow.
THe learned, and I applaude them. Look at posts when FX was first comming back and SLI was announced. I was one of the first to be happy at this, now if only they could get SSD support done proper it would make many of us happy.

-ST
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old October 5, 2012, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by terrybear View Post
Also your "theory" on this how both companies try to make you upgrade your motherboard .. Pardon me but WHOM makes the motherboards? NEITHER company does !! Its the board makers themselves that try to do so by not putting bios's out on older products that might support a newer cpu.
They still make money on the motherboards sold by their partners.

You wouldn't run an i3 with a raid configuration for a home file server?
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old October 5, 2012, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by chrisk View Post
Waiting for the heat and power to drop for similar performance on AMD stuff. I have done the research for the things I do and I am waiting for AMD
Strike 2: Hotter
Honestly there has never been a heat issue with cpu's from either company since moving to 32nm ... especialy if your talking enthusiest & aftermarket cooling

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk View Post
So, with my typical usage, I find that the typical user for me has the following requirements:
3. Some transcoding (people tend to have some software like Nero for taking videos and compressing/transcoding for use in a mobile phone)
4. Quiet, and cool

So with my suggestions above, I typically still fall back to an Intel i3 or i5 setup. So seriously (I am not being coy), how does AMD compete on the above now? I am especially concerned about #3 and #4 in my list above. I have not looked at AMD in ages, so I am honestly looking for a good review or comparison here with regards to the latest AMD stuff.
The 1-2 "trinity" reviews I have read mobilewise has been positive with top end trinity cpu's vs i3/i5's & some instances in the 1 review bump close to the i7's too .... BUT again, with the variety of hardware out there its hard to fully conclude good or bad how it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilauea View Post
Depending on our needs and priorities, Intel may (usually is) the way to go simply because AMD failed to improve enough. If Bulldozer was a - more - decent improvement over Phenom II (but still behind Intel) I'm quite sure more of us would go for it. But the fact is that we know that for the most part, if you go for Bulldozer, you choose to buy something that is the equivalent of a few years old processor. That doesn't compute with enthusiast, which is why here Intel is the way to go.

I do not consider myself as a real fanboi, but if I had to chose between 2 similar processors and everything was equal, but the small guy was a little underperforming, I'd go for the little guy (granted there was some sort of advantage for my wallet). But as it is now, I'd choose Intel because of how I know I use my computer.

Back to the point, for average Joe, I don't think it matters much. A few months ago, my cousin asked me for a suggestion for a cheap laptop to do basic office, web browsing stuff and that would be plugged most of the time. All I told her is not to get Atom, C-series or Zacate, but anything else would do fine for her needs independently of the price. I don't think she complained at all, because that is what the average Joe needs: something cheap that works. The rest is not important.
You know I won a Dell pc that had a intel i7 860 in it 2-3 years ago, same amount of ram & speed that i had in my X4 955 BE & simularely configured hardwarewise .... when I sat there & just did generalized things like opening folders n such ..... you know how much diffrence I noticed between the 2 .... absolutely NONE ... And thats always been my point ... no one NEEDS to buy specificaly & ONLY intel to have a general usage pc/device & be happy with it. Just like your latter point of your post ... ultimately in the end it shouldnt matter what is in it intel/amd/ibm & ect ..... as long as it does what it needs to do.
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