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  #41 (permalink)  
Old May 28, 2010, 07:16 PM
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To me, Im not married to either. I pick whats best for a given scenario....as long as my clients dont care....I DONT care. Last gen it was NV, before that I liked ATI. This gen, looks like ATI still has the lead. For my own kit, when my 275s wont cut it...I'll look around....bug Skymtl for his input and then make my own decision. Till then I dont really care.... I just want BOTH to still be around when its time to chose.

My question is. What does ATI have that attracts people to the exclusion of NV? What does NV have that attracts people to the exclusion of ATI? IMHO peeps get way to damn emotionally invested in "team green" or "team red" when neither side give a crap about anything besides making as much money as possible. Pick whats best for your needs and move on. None of this "its not fair", "why cant we all just get along" nonsense. I WANT both companies to hate each other. I WANT them to cut margins as close as they can so as to try and kill the other "team". When competing companies get too cozy....the consumer gets shafted. YMMV
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old May 28, 2010, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 0o0 View Post
once again only thinking for yourself...
Who else should I think about? nVidia? Their financial survival is not my responsibility. It is their responsibility to provide a quality product that is good enough for me to want to buy. If they don't want to let me use ATI and nVidia GPUs in the same system, then I just won't buy the nVidia GPUs. I'll be getting an X58 board with three PCI-E slots.

If nVidia didn't have this silly block, I'd be sticking a 5870 in the first and I'd be buying another two nVidia cards to fill the other ones. But since I can't do that, I'll just end up with a single 5870 and two empty slots instead. So now what is the advantage? nVidia is losing out because I'm not buying more of their GPUs, and I'm losing out because I can't do what I would like to do with my system. Bad for me, bad for nVidia, good for nobody.
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just like how pc gaming is dieing because of the pirating paradox (cheapos pirate because they won't spend a cent, result higher game prices, result even more people pirate because they don't want to spend $50, result pc gaming dead)
You really have no idea what you're talking about. Piracy actually has very little to do with increasing game prices. In fact, the amount of piracy right now proportional to game sales has not increased compared to years ago. The reason games cost more is simply because they cost significantly more to make. I work in the games industry and I can see what goes on behind the scenes to a certain extent. Many developers have to make sacrifices with the quality and stability of their games because they don't have the money to improve them as much as they would like. The amount of shovelware being made doesn't help either; a lot of companies are just trying to make a quick buck and end up both flooding the market and hurting legitimate developers at the same time. Last year was an extremely bad year for the industry, and thankfully things are starting to move in a more positive direction right now. But the fact is that piracy has been a constant factor for years, and its impact hasn't really changed. Publishers are just using it as an excuse to milk their customers more and more.
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If ATI had everything....why would anyone buy NV? IF NV wasn't around crap would be bad. AMD has a proven track record of jacking up prices and milking advantages for all their worth (look at what they did with their X2's when Intel were crap). IF there was no competition...we would all be running ATI 5xxx series card for the next friggin decade.
You don't have to mention that example to me; I've used it plenty of times myself and I remember those days very well. I don't deny that competition is good, but at the same time, that doesn't mean I have to like the tactics nVidia is using to compete.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old May 28, 2010, 07:33 PM
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How so? If nVidia does make the better card taking into account Tessellation performance as you say it does, then why would people move from their high end GTX's to an ATI?



Why would someone who bought an nVidia card be upset at this development? If a consumer has done their research, and made a satisfactory purchase, what reason would they have to buy an ATI card if PhysX was offered to the 'red side'. You've said it yourself that nVidia makes the better card anyways, so I'm sure nVidia will be able to stand on its two feet just fine, and maybe even make a couple extra sales from those who didn't buy their product. Or are you saying that nVidia's product is actually mediocre without PhysX, and cannot compete without the featue? I don't understand.

Fanboyism? I'm not seeing much here. There's people with ATI cards that want to run nVidia's technology, so that certainly doesn't reek of fanboyism. You don't strike me as a fanboy either, seeing as you've effectively said that nVidia wouldn't have a leg to stand on without PhysX.

If nVidia's financial viability in the graphics market actually depends upon PhysX, then they might as well just cede the market to ATI and Intel. Fortunately that isn't the case, and a move like this would not kill the company. Far from it. PhysX is a niche product, and sales related to it are minor in the grand scheme of things.



Talk about exaggeration. Not one post in this thread in any way mirrors your analogy. Heck, it was you that said that enabling PhysX with ATI would kill nVidia, not anyone else. Questions in this thread about nVidia's viability are suppositions, and are unfounded, just as your the material in your posts are. We're 'not very smart?' Puh-leeeze.
I don't entirely understand your post. I don't think you understood me either. My points was, if nvidia gave physx to red, I'd be pissed. Not because nvidia wouldn't be good without physx, it would have some advantages and some disadvatages from red, but there would be one less advantage which was a big influence to my decision to buy green. If nvidia gave physx to ati, it's possible I would switch to ati out of sheer anger.

I don't think I did. I think you are trying to make a HUGE exaggeration of what I have said. Physx isn't nvidia's only leg. There's folding, and there's CUDA in general. And the fact that it's less buggy than ati imho. I'll say it again, nvidia may effectively loose revenue if they did unlock physx on ati. They'd get a lot more sales for gt240's and stuff, and their high-end sales may plumment.

Your last paragraph is just dumb, don't try that kind of stuff.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old May 28, 2010, 08:21 PM
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i say beers on the house. i like nvidia for...hmm..folding...and ati's newer cards for gaming while keeping things not too hot :)
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old May 28, 2010, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by 0o0 View Post
I don't entirely understand your post. I don't think you understood me either. My points was, if nvidia gave physx to red, I'd be pissed. Not because nvidia wouldn't be good without physx, it would have some advantages and some disadvatages from red, but there would be one less advantage which was a big influence to my decision to buy green. If nvidia gave physx to ati, it's possible I would switch to ati out of sheer anger.
If you get emotive about hardware, then that's your prerogative. Why would you switch? Your card is running fine at HD resolution and you're perfectly happy. You've said that nVidia's DX11 cards handle tessellation better than their ATI competition. You've said that the GTX470 stomps all over the 5870. So why would you get angry at all? nVidia has plenty of tangible benefits to capture buyers besides PhysX, like 3D Vision, Folding, and CUDA, in addition to their performance capabilities. You'd be upset that an ATI user would have a similar capability as you? That's counter-intuitive. You should be happy, because that would mean the demand for nVidia's technology would grow, and likely introduce more games with PhysX goodness.

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Originally Posted by 0o0 View Post
I don't think I did. I think you are trying to make a HUGE exaggeration of what I have said.
I only quoted the things you said, reiterated your points, and then argued them. I don't see any sort of exaggeration on my end, but feel free to point it out. I'm fallible.

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Originally Posted by 0o0 View Post
Physx isn't nvidia's only leg. There's folding, and there's CUDA in general. And the fact that it's less buggy than ati imho. I'll say it again, nvidia may effectively loose revenue if they did unlock physx on ati. They'd get a lot more sales for gt240's and stuff, and their high-end sales may plumment.
They may lose revenue, but the possibility to make it up, and even increase it is there. If they're capable of selling GT240's to a base of customers that they initially didn't sell to, then they'll still make money. Someone who bought a 5850 lately but wants PhysX likely won't invest in a GTX470, but it's far more likely they'll pick up that 52 dollar 9800GT shell-shocker on newegg; nVidia still gets a sale, instead of none at all, and they can use the extra money to develop products that will likely compel that consumer to go with a 'green' card next time. A good way to market your brand is to get it into someone's hands after all. It could mean more high end sales in the future.

You say their drivers are better. Good, then nVidia would have an opportunity to showcase to ATI users that is the case. When someone's getting a grey screen of death after an update or whathaveyou, in the back of their mind, they'll be thinking how their PhysX card and software has never caused a fuss. Score one for nVidia when time for a new card comes around.

At the end of their day, their decision is smart for plenty of reasons, just as it poor for many others. nVidia is up against two juggernauts, Intel and AMD/ATI. They need to be scrappy in order to compete, and if they played their cards right, allowing PhysX with ATI cards could easily have been a way to rub ATI's proverbial nose in the sh*t. Demand for an OpenCL based alternative would be slowed down, because PhysX would be easily available, and is already implemented in a variety of games. ATI would be hog-tied either way; what are they going to do? Block the new PhysX feature? Why that'd be pulling an nVidia, and would in turn cause people with ATI's to consider buying a shiny new GTX 470.


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Your last paragraph is just dumb, don't try that kind of stuff.
Don't do what? Repeat what you've said? Argue what you've said? I'm sorry, but you've yet to quantify your arguments, instead choosing to attack and berate people who disagree with you. Over a graphics card, which is a piece of plastic and a couple chips, of all things. The knowledge and opinions shared in this forum is of a very high caliber; the complaints, concerns and arguments presented by others are entirely fair and viable, and to write off anyone who disagrees with as stupid is just not awesome.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old May 28, 2010, 09:32 PM
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Guess it's working. I'm sticking with nvidia, loving physx once again only thinking for yourself
LOL! You have some valid points, but when you pull the PHYSx and TESSELATION ad nauseam it becomes ridiculous.

PHYSx is just a couple games really. They had an interesting way to implement it in the AGEIA days...now they made it proprietary...their call.

Tesselation is really nice, but unless you got HEAVEN benchmark as your screen saver and look at it at all times, or you play METRO 2033 to no end, don't pull the tesselation card too much... WHY?

Because no game studio will implement "tesselation-to-death" in their games to the point that the game becomes unplayable but for the most LEET nVIDIA boys. They all learned from CRYSIS and now METRO 2033, only very few game producers like to put out a game that's so taxing on systems that most can't play.

Tesselation and DX11 features are now part of the landscape, but by the time HEAVY tesselation is employed in all games, your 470 will be on craigslist or used in a secondary/folding rig.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old May 28, 2010, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Delavan View Post
Tesselation and DX11 features are now part of the landscape, but by the time HEAVY tesselation is employed in all games, your 470 will be on craigslist or used in a secondary/folding rig.
very good point...
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old May 28, 2010, 09:57 PM
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Just a reminder to keep it civil everyone.

There's some good discussion here, but there's also a couple of posts that are walking the fine line. Keep your discussion on topic, and no insults please.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old May 28, 2010, 10:42 PM
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what happened with the ban stick free for all? :p

but seriously....the above is quite funny, but true....

like any 'revolutionary' piece of hardware, a few gens down the road and its liek a pIII in a i7 mindfield
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old May 29, 2010, 05:58 PM
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Dam it!

Seriously, what's up with Nvidia?

As of now, ATI leads in the enthusiast section, with the lower power consumption/heat etc. of the 5870.
The result for Nvidia? Only a few who really think Tesselation is so important will buy a 480.

As of now, very few go in for Nvidia just for the PhysX. They do so for other reasons: Folding, Tesselation.

Why can't Nvidia make a dedicated PhysX processing unit a la AGEIA?(Along with Driver support for ATI cards and others too) This means that regardless of who's leading in the graphics card segment, Nvidia will still have sales. And maybe then Games companies will actually use it better since it is available to everyone.
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