Go Back   Hardware Canucks > NEWS & REVIEWS > Press Releases & Tech News

    
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31 (permalink)  
Old March 10, 2010, 02:25 PM
belgolas's Avatar
Hall Of Fame
F@H
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Thomas Ontario close to london
Posts: 3,936

My System Specs

Default

The more money you make the more people try and take it. Windows 7 was one of the cheapest. Sadly it still is more expensive than OSX.

KeepSix I agree that Windows is very stable and can't remember my last BSOD. I have had no problems since Service Pack 2 on XP except for a few over clock issues which are my fault anyways.

Oh wait I forgot about Vista pre service pack 1. That was a nightmare and try to block it out of my mind. But since then no problems. Microsoft even made such a good beta that a lot of people including me would be happy with just the windows 7 beta as a full time OS for the next 4-5 years till Microsoft releases the next big OS.
__________________

Sponsor a child!
Fight poverty.

Qoute by Perineum
"ID10T. I just BETCHA he's got 9 toolbars on his web browser right now."
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old March 10, 2010, 04:02 PM
Fudd Rucker's Avatar
Allstar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SSM Ont
Posts: 950

My System Specs

Default

I absolutly adore win 7. The price on it is great, licencing is pretty lax compared to the past. This OS has been 100% hassle free and rock stable for me.I even paid for every copy I have thats how much I liked it. I would have never paid for an XP licence, might have paid for a vista one as I had zero issues with vista.
__________________
I couldnt think of something snarky or interesting to put here this time around.
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old March 11, 2010, 11:50 AM
kuddles's Avatar
Rookie
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 30
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukka View Post
Well I just checked out the site for Snow Leapord, which is probably the biggest competition. Guess what, $30 (US). Oh, and a family pack is $50. Windows 7 Home Premium OEM is $105, family pack $300 (according to newegg.com.) Yes, I know you need a mac to install it; and no I am not a mac fanboy, but still
But that's the entire point: You need a mac to install it. In other words, an overpriced computer that is sold directly by Apple and nobody else. So it's not a fair comparison since Apple makes most of it's money off the hardware, and Microsoft doesn't have that option.

Same reason why they keep itunes songs at 99 cents despite the complaints of the music industry. It's not out of some desire to keep prices reasonable or anything. It's because Apple really doesn't care about itunes sales, it's just a way to appeal to customers to buy iPods, where they make most of their profit.
__________________
Your favourite game of last year was over-rated, generic and contained poor level design.
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old March 11, 2010, 02:31 PM
Banned
F@H
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 5,415

My System Specs

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuddles View Post
Same reason why they keep itunes songs at 99 cents despite the complaints of the music industry. It's not out of some desire to keep prices reasonable or anything. It's because Apple really doesn't care about itunes sales, it's just a way to appeal to customers to buy iPods, where they make most of their profit.
Actually, Apple makes a ton of money from the iTunes store. IIRC they take something like 70 cents from each 99 cent sale.
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old March 11, 2010, 06:58 PM
EmptyMellon
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default socialist self-intitlement syndrome

Another prime example of a self-intitlement syndrome in our modern society; many want to get paid, but do nothing productive and constructive for this this.
This is a sad day for our Canadian society.
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old March 14, 2010, 07:58 PM
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why Windows is priced too high.

Consider this: A computer without an operating system is as good as a door stop. A computer with an Operating System (OS) loaded is still just a door stop. If the OS loaded is Linux, it is only slightly more expensive because Linux is free. But you spent time to install it on the computer and time is money. However if the OS is Windows it is now a considerably more expensive door stop (or boat anchor) because you have paid anywhere from $80 to $300 dollars or more for it.

Remember, an Operating System in its pure sense does not have any applications bundled in. Internet Explorer, Notepad, Wordpad, Calculator, MS Paint, and the games like Solitaire, Minesweeper etc. are actually applications. The OS does not need any of them to run. Just because Microsoft includes them in Windows does not mean they are part of the OS.

So, if you have a computer with Windows loaded you cannot do anything with is until you install applications on it. Therefore Microsoft should not charge anything over $10 dollars for Windows. They can by all means charge whatever they like for their applications but the OS should never cost anything over $10. Free is even better.
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old March 14, 2010, 09:26 PM
Banned
F@H
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 5,415

My System Specs

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Consider this: A computer without an operating system is as good as a door stop. A computer with an Operating System (OS) loaded is still just a door stop. If the OS loaded is Linux, it is only slightly more expensive because Linux is free. But you spent time to install it on the computer and time is money. However if the OS is Windows it is now a considerably more expensive door stop (or boat anchor) because you have paid anywhere from $80 to $300 dollars or more for it.

Remember, an Operating System in its pure sense does not have any applications bundled in. Internet Explorer, Notepad, Wordpad, Calculator, MS Paint, and the games like Solitaire, Minesweeper etc. are actually applications. The OS does not need any of them to run. Just because Microsoft includes them in Windows does not mean they are part of the OS.

So, if you have a computer with Windows loaded you cannot do anything with is until you install applications on it. Therefore Microsoft should not charge anything over $10 dollars for Windows. They can by all means charge whatever they like for their applications but the OS should never cost anything over $10. Free is even better.
Your car without gas is just a doorstop. It's a large chunk of metal, plastic, fabric, and a bunch of other stuff, and until you put gas in it, it's useless. So should gas be free too?

What about all the money that goes into developing an operating system, designing a user interface, building APIs to allow developers to write applications for it, bug checking, ensuring compatibility over a wide range of hardware configurations, etc.? An operating system is not a simple thing to design or program. Even without considering any bundled applications, a significant amount of work and money goes into creating an OS. Microsoft is primarily a software company, and if they didn't actually sell the product they spent all that time and money developing, they wouldn't be a very effective business, would they?
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old March 14, 2010, 10:07 PM
Jake_HT's Avatar
Hall Of Fame
F@H
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 1,985

My System Specs

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukka View Post
Well I just checked out the site for Snow Leapord, which is probably the biggest competition. Guess what, $30 (US). Oh, and a family pack is $50. Windows 7 Home Premium OEM is $105, family pack $300 (according to newegg.com.) Yes, I know you need a mac to install it; and no I am not a mac fanboy, but still
Take into account the ratio between compatible applications for each, and then also the ratio on being compatible with different kinds of hardware... it only makes sense that windows is more.

No complaints about MS prices here. Win7 is priced fair IMO. It's the only software I paid for...
__________________
http://jakeht.deviantart.com/
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old March 18, 2010, 12:49 AM
p1RAT3
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero82z View Post
Your car without gas is just a doorstop. It's a large chunk of metal, plastic, fabric, and a bunch of other stuff, and until you put gas in it, it's useless. So should gas be free too?
Please, STOP looking like an idiot and comparing software to hardware. If you have a litre of gas, there is no way to multiply the gas that you have to fill the tank, it will just evaporate away while you try. Now take a 1 megabyte piece of software, and using "Ctrl + C" and then a certain number of "Ctrl + V" you can fill the whole harddrive, your non-existent GF's harddrive, and those of all your neighbours. Use something from SourceForge so that not one idiot screams "PIRATE!!!".

But even by your analogy, even when the car's gas tank is full, oil filter replaced, wipers brand new, tires rotated and inflated, oil changed, windshield washer/brake/transmission fluids are at their full as well, the said car is still a doorstop. Until someone starts steering it. Now what is more important, the gas in the tank, or the driver behind the wheel? I have a choice of not buying gas from Shell and going to any other retailer (I have no beef with Shell per se, just using them as an example). The question being contested is that you are tied to using gas from one provider, otherwise you can use your own gas, but still have to pay Shell. That is what I (and many B.C. residents) have a problem with.

The value of anything is relative. When I am out of gas, a million gallons of water are useless to me. If I'm dying of thirst in the desert, a million pounds of gold are worthless to me, no matter that it could retail for $18 billion. My perceived worth of any M$ software is exactly 0 (see how there is no dollar sign? 0 is dimensionless quantity). So, even if a M$ OS is free but would require me burning it to one of my blank DVDs, it's infinitely more expensive, because the 25 cents or so I paid for that disk is still more than what I would spend on it. Now, when it comes to the matter of making my next laptop cost another $100 more because of it, hell, i'd rather spend it in a bar than toss that at M$. Hangover is far better than dealing with windows, at least the headache does not last forever. If you are fine with paying $100-$300 for windows, and consider that to be a good deal, then that is fine by me - it is YOUR choice to decide what works best for you. M$ does not work for me, therefore its cost is only an issue if I actually have to pay for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero82z View Post
What about all the money that goes into developing an operating system, designing a user interface, building APIs to allow developers to write applications for it, bug checking, ensuring compatibility over a wide range of hardware configurations, etc.?
Let me replace your "etc" with:
Rewriting crap code recursively
Forward legal fees (suing everyone they think that they have a case against)
Rewriting crap code recursively
Backward legal fees (defending themselves when accused in court - i4i anyone??? A quarter billion is still a nice chunk of change after all.)
Rewriting crap code recursively
TV commercials
Rewriting crap code recursively
Print commercials
Rewriting crap code recursively
Online commercials
Rewriting crap code recursively
XBOX 360
Rewriting crap code recursively
Tons of dead trees sent out to computer retailers
Rewriting crap code recursively
Presentations at the universities trying to get recruit the young and bright
Rewriting crap code recursively
Bribing the tech press by sending them free software/hardware
Rewriting crap code recursively
etc.

Now, your points individually:
Developing an OS - There are many OS's available with open-source stack. Given that M$ stole all of the TCP-IP stack from BSD (GIYF), that whole argument is moot (internet connectivity is now seen as the most important task an OS performs, so if THAT part is stolen, then the whole OS is...). Rewriting crap code ad infinitum does not count either (Vista was re-written 3 times FYI, GIYF)
Designing UI - are you talking about artists? Or the CS4 licenses that those artists work on? Or money spent ripping off Compiz (0)? Cuz M$ spends more money on artwork than on engineering, and both taken toghether are far outshined by advertising budget for windows
building APIs to allow developers to write applications for it - that is something they MUST do. Otherwise noone would code for their OS, and noone would buy it because there is no software available for it! Moot point. Realistically, I could write a C/C++ program for W7 just as easy as for linux, without using any IDEs or APIs, it will be much easier to compile it with gcc/g++ on linux though.
bug checking - It compiles!!! Lets ship it!!! At least that's what I felt after using first run of WinME (shudder). And let us not forget rewriting crap code recursively.
ensuring compatibility over a wide range of hardware configurations - Have you seen windows running on SPARC? (no) Have you seen windows running on RISC? (no) Have you seen windows running on PowerPC? (no). In fact, have you seen desktop windows running on anything but x86 or its 64 bit extension? (no. And before you start waving arms, Server releases that support ia-64 are NOT desktop OS). Another moot point. There is more to that though, you, and as a matter of fact, everyone, should read "After Software Wars". It is free, as in beer, but not quite as in "Creative Commons". This particular M$ veteran points, and let me quote (pages 24-25)
Quote:
(an operating system's kernel is composed of) [...] device drivers, which is 50% of the code, and more than 75% of its code is hardware-specific. The Microsoft Windows NT kernel diagram [...] puts all the device drivers into a little box in the lower left-hand corner, illustrating the difference between theory and reality. In fact, if Microsoft had drawn the kernel mode drivers box as 50% of the Windows NT diagram, they might have understood how a kernel is mostly hardware-specific code, and reconsidered whether it was a business they wanted to get into.
But, it is the business M$ is in...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero82z View Post
An operating system is not a simple thing to design or program. Even without considering any bundled applications, a significant amount of work and money goes into creating an OS. Microsoft is primarily a software company, and if they didn't actually sell the product they spent all that time and money developing, they wouldn't be a very effective business, would they?
They DO NOT SELL the product they make. Look it up (GIYF). The windows, office, msn messenger, or any other piece of worthless software they make is LICENSED, NOT SOLD. Learn how to read the EULA. Somehow, Canonical does not sell the OS they make. Neither do thy license it at a cost. And yet the enterprise is profitable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmptyMellon
Another prime example of a self-intitlement syndrome in our modern society; many want to get paid, but do nothing productive and constructive for this this.
This is a sad day for our Canadian society.
Wait, are you implying that M$ is feeling entitled to get paid while doing nothing productive and constructive for that privilege? Save, of course, bribing the PC vendors with "volume and exclusivity" discounts? A truly sad day for Canada was when 24% of Canadians chose a ruling party, and then trumpeted it as "legitimate government", and many more believed. That was the day that Canadian democracy died. FYI: wasn't too long ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukka
Well I just checked out the site for Snow Leapord, which is probably the biggest competition. Guess what, $30 (US). Oh, and a family pack is $50. Windows 7 Home Premium OEM is $105, family pack $300 (according to newegg.com.) Yes, I know you need a mac to install it; and no I am not a mac fanboy, but still
1-st off, what are you doing on a newegg.com? We go to newegg.ca!
The biggest competition for M$ windows are:
1. Pirated windows
2. linux

Both of which cost exactly 0.


I have bought an Acer Aspire One in September 2008. Foreword of the EULA states that IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND. I have immediately wiped off the harddrive, including the backup partition, and then proceeded to install Ubuntu on it. Then I called Acer support to try to get the refund. Long story short, after sending it out twice (the 1-st time the tech centre idiot reinstalled XP on it..... GRRRRRR) I am still waiting for that refund. Who wants to join me in a class action lawsuit here in Ontario?

Also, please also stop comparing Apple to M$. Both are evil in their own ways. When it comes to Apple PCs, I simply do not feel like paying double the hardware price for the privilege of running FreeBSD in a shiny box with known quality issues and known child labour. And I do not know who spies on you more (I am sure it is Apple though).

Having said that, I paid exactly 0 to get windows 7. I got my license through MSDNAA, and I installed it off a USB key. It still sits on my computer. After going through hell installing 8 drivers for it, I left it in ready (though outdated by now) state and never booted into it again since late October (or it could be 2nd of November) last year. I'm not tight on HDD space yet, so it may live a few more months, just not used. So, I can safely say that I have yet to bother using windows 7. Installing drivers was the turn-off. M$, the tech press, and the world plus dog decided that W7 is good, and the driver problems are a thing of the past. Not for me apparently. I had far less trouble installing the single needed driver for Ubuntu than hunting down all the drivers for W7 (the worst was the USB wireless adapter, for W7 of course, I run a Phenom II X2 550 system + ATi 4870 + 785G MB). Ubuntu that I have been using for 3 years now is worth a lot more to me than the free W7. Which is why every year I make a $10 donation to Debian Foundation - precisely because I do not have to, as they have made a great piece of work, and have never demanded anything from me in return.
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old March 18, 2010, 09:50 AM
Fudd Rucker's Avatar
Allstar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SSM Ont
Posts: 950

My System Specs

Default

LMAO what driver problems? So far the only driver issues ive ran into that 7 itself didnt have a pretty decent driver for already was bluetooth and ancient wireless cards. I have installed windows 7 on at least 200 machines without a single issue. Get less obscure or modern hardware as ive had laptops from 2007 install everything right out of the box. My macbook pro even had every device installed and ready to go out of the box when I ran windows 7 on it for gaming.

Granted Linux is free - its impractical for your average schmoe. And installing drivers via linux can be outright retarded and over the top complicated for no reason with shit driver support at best as they chop proper support for VGA especially after a single generation, yet you complain about windows and your "8" drivers. Granted almost all motherboards now use roughly either 1 of 3 chipsets - AMD,Nforce, Intel x38/x48/x58/P55 - almost all of those drivers install out of the box.Then there is the matter of audio/video/NIC which has a pretty small competition base so even then the driver base isnt all that big.Ive also installed windowss on many many pcs with your specs that didnt require that insane amount of drivers- unless your one of those who has to make everything a lot more difficult then it has to which a lot of backyard techs do to make themselves seem a lot more skilled then they actually are. That also goes a lot for those blatantly ignorant Linux users who try wow people with thier uber console skills which is so much more practical then simple double clicking.

Then there is a big part of an OS which many still cling on too gaming - why else would we have this kickass hardware?
Gaming is pisspoor at best with linux. Wine is buggy as crap doesnt work all that well. Crossover is crap, and CVS cedega is an optimized version of WINE.

Linux is great if you have one specific task in mind or production in mind. Not practical anymore for everyday home use.

Look at my system specs:

Amount of drivers needed to install - 1 - ATI CCC, oh and RAID drivers when I did initial install. Everything after install out of the box has worked flawlessly for me. Zero crashing, zero problems.

Now if I were using linux I would have to make sure my xorg was configured right then....

Obtaining Needed Software


Before you begin, it is strongly advised that your already have Xorg working acceptably with the 'nv' drivers included.


First, make sure that your /etc/X11/xorg.conf is backed up. sudo cp /etc/X11/xorg.conf /etc/X11/xorg.conf.backup
Next, download the right drivers for your platform from the driver download page or the NVIDIA Unix Driver portal and save them to your home directory.
Open a terminal, and run the following command: sudo apt-get install build-essential linux-headers-`uname -r`
This next step is optional. Most people will not need it, and it takes a fair amount of bandwidth and diskspace. It installs the Linux kernel source. If later steps fail, consider this a last resort.


sudo apt-get install linux-source-`uname -r`cd /usr/srcsudo tar xvjf linux-source-`uname -r`sudo ln -s linux-source-`uname -r` /usr/src/linux
The above command might print an error similar to the following: E: Couldn't find package linux-source-2.6.20-16-386
In such case you could try following sudo apt-get install linux-source
The following command will then probably need adjustment also.
Disable Conflicting Software


Using Synaptic or apt-get, uninstall nvidia-glx, nvidia-glx-legacy, nvidia-glx-new and nvidia-settings if they are installed.
Open the the /etc/default/linux-restricted-modules-common file with an editor, in Ubuntu use gksudo gedit /etc/default/linux-restricted-modules-common
and in Kubuntu use kdesu kate /etc/default/linux-restricted-modules-common
and find the line: DISABLED_MODULES=""
replace it with: DISABLED_MODULES="nv nvidia_new"
Note: In Ubuntu 7.04 the nvidia_new is explicitly required in addition to nv on the DISABLED_MODULES line. See this launchpad bug about lrm-manager failing to disable the nvidia_new module when nv is specified alone. Additionally you may need to manually remove the hidden /lib/linux-restricted-modules/.nvidia_new_installed file.
Warning: Be wary of uninstalling nvidia-kernel-common or packages starting with the name linux-restricted-modules. Doing so will cause all restricted drivers to be uninstalled which may result in other hardware (e.g. certain wireless cards) or other software (e.g. VMware) failing to work after a reboot/kernel update.


Prepare Configuration Files


The next step is to edit your xorg.conf file. This may not be needed in Hardy Heron and newer, but check anyway, esp. if you have upgraded from older versions of Ubuntu.
In Ubuntu: gksudo gedit /etc/X11/xorg.conf
Or in Kubuntu: kdesu kate /etc/X11/xorg.conf
Find the section Module and comment out DRI using the # symbol, such as in the following example. Section "Module" Load "bitmap" Load "dbe" Load "ddc"# Load "dri" <------ this is 'commented' Load "extmod" Load "freetype" Load "glx" Load "int10" Load "record" Load "type1" Load "vbe"EndSection
Now find the section Device, and change the Driver from nv (or vesa, fb, etc) to nvidia, as in the following example, and then save it. Section "Device" Identifier "Card0" Driver "nvidia" #This is where you change itEndSection
Now that your Xorg.conf is saved, we need to shutdown the X11 server so that we can install the new drivers. To do this, save your work and press ctrl-alt-f1, and log in. Then run the following command to shutdown X11. Make sure your work is saved, Gnome/KDE is going to shutdown too.
For Ubuntu: sudo /etc/init.d/gdm stop
For Kubuntu: sudo /etc/init.d/kdm stop
Install the Driver


Useful tip, typing the first few letters and hitting the Tab key will auto-complete the name, saving you from using wildcards like *
First navigate from the tty to the directory where you saved the install file (I will use /path/to/installer), then set executable permissions on it: cd /path/to/installersudo chmod +x NVIDIA*
You can start the install script with the following command: sudo sh NVIDIA*
The installer will now walk you through the steps required. Assuming success, you can now restart your X11 server using:
For Ubuntu: sudo /etc/init.d/gdm start
For Kubuntu: sudo /etc/init.d/kdm start
Configure


You can now change settings for your video setup. In Ubuntu, go to Applications->System Tools->NVIDIA X Server Settings (or sometimes System->Administration->NVIDIA X Server Settings depending on the driver and/or install method). Alternatively, use the terminal:
For Ubuntu: gksudo nvidia-settings
For Kubuntu: kdesu nvidia-settings
For setting up dual head, see NvidiaMultiMonitors.
Load driver on boot


The X server will start in low-resolution if the nvidia driver is not loaded on boot, so $ sudo gedit /etc/modules and add a line containing nvidia
Kernel and Mesa Updates


Every time a new kernel comes out you will probably have to manually rebuild the NVIDIA binary driver kernel module. This can be done by booting to the new kernel and then running: sudo sh NVIDIA* -K
on the previously downloaded NVIDIA installer file.
Additionally, any time that the mesa packages are updated you will have to reinstall the NVIDIA .pkg again.
Uninstalling the Driver


Sometimes it is necessary to uninstall the driver, like before a version upgrade of Ubuntu or if the installation fails or is no longer needed. For a manual install, you can remove the driver using the installer file: sudo sh NVIDIA* --uninstall
You will probably be asked to reboot the computer.
It didn't work! (Troubleshooting)


When trying to start X, if you get an error about nvidiactl (you will need to see the X log), try the following:
  • sudo update-rc.d -f nvidia-kernel remove
If you want to go back to the Restricted Manager method after performing the above instructions, do this
  • sudo update-rc.d nvidia-kernel defaults
If the installer fails, go through the following checklist
  • Was Xorg already properly configured for the nv driver?
  • Did you disable the loading of Ubuntu provided NVIDIA drivers using DISABLED_MODULES="nv nvidia_new" in /etc/default/linux-restricted-modules-common ? This is a common cause of driver mismatch errors on manual installations due to conflicts with the Ubuntu provided NVIDIA binary driver.
  • You may need to remove the file /lib/linux-restricted-modules/.nvidia_new_installed
  • Did you remove the nvidia-glx/nvidia-glx-legacy/nvidia-glx-new and nvidia-settings packages?
  • Did you read the log found in /var/log/nvidia-installer-log for errors that can guide you?
  • Did you check the output of dmesg ?
  • Did you install the kernel headers (and possibly source package)?
  • Did you check the NVIDIA readme found on their site to make sure your card is supported with that version of driver?
  • Did you check the NVIDIA Linux Forums for any current 'known issues' with the latest drivers?
  • Did you ask in #ubuntu on irc.freenode.net or any of the other places mentioned on http://www.ubuntu.com/support/communitysupport ?
Because those instructions above is soooooooo much easier and reliable right?
__________________
I couldnt think of something snarky or interesting to put here this time around.

Last edited by Fudd Rucker; March 18, 2010 at 10:07 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Displayport 1.2 gets approved - 21Gbps Anyone? [Engadget] CMetaphor Press Releases & Tech News 0 January 18, 2010 08:59 AM
Small Canadian firm wins $290m lawsuit vs Microsoft: chrisk Press Releases & Tech News 21 December 22, 2009 04:08 PM
Performance-PC's and Canadians kruzn4evr Off Topic 53 August 11, 2009 09:24 PM
Great Canadians badatcards Off Topic 10 July 17, 2009 12:43 PM
Find that old Dell s: 1100, 1150, 5100, 5150. Class Action suit looks good. Mark Press Releases & Tech News 4 March 11, 2009 04:25 PM