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  #31 (permalink)  
Old March 16, 2009, 09:06 AM
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I wouldn't call it "decent value", Macs have always held a premium price when compared to similar spec'd computers from other vendors and especially home built.

However, most Mac owners do not know or care about this. They buy their Mac, it does what they want it to, and they are happy for years as the systems typically hold a better value when aged. Unlike a PC which falls to 25-50% of it's original value after a year or two.

Case in point: Corporate owners will buy the latest Mac, outfit it with what they need when ordering, and then upgrade it down the road by buying the parts off a Mac dealer at very hefty prices. Often, they have a sale rep come over to suggest the upgrades and install them when purchased. Very few prepress operators can install RAM or hard drives. The operation cannot afford downtime.

An associate of mine runs a prepress department, and they just replaced all their workstations with iMacs. They are plenty fast to run the publishing apps they need, include a sweet display, and are much more powerful than their previous gen Mac Pros. There is no need for them to buy more Mac Pros, because things happen pretty much instantly on an iMac. They spend way more money on software upgrades than hardware these days anyway.

The iMac is largely not upgradable. You can add more ram to a point, a larger hard drive, but that's it. You need the Mac Pro if you want high end video, multi-processors, huge amounts of RAM, other internal components, or multiple internal HDs with or without a RAID.

A Mac Pro would be needed more in a video editing environment, where the multi cores would be put to better use. Also, multi hard drives and raid arrays with raid cards or fibrechannel would be better suited for large video files, as most prepress departments these days can store their client files on a (RIP) server, Xserve or even an external HD. It wasn't long ago that a prepress client folder at 1 or 2GB was considered pretty big. These days that size is chump change, yet the client folders are not getting any bigger. A decent size server or external HD can hold months worth of client files.

For the most part, I feel that people buying a Mac Pro are not concerned with the cost. They may have a budget that must be less than $10k or $20k, but otherwise just buy what they need and fits the budget when they order.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old March 16, 2009, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Chilly View Post

Now time for math! Assuming you build it launch day(March 29th), if you built a workstation yourself using the same grade stuff(Dual Xeon EP's) as a Mac Pro, how expensive would it be?

Case: $300-$500 | Depending on how nice you want to go, remember, most regular cases won't work due to most motherboards using E-ATX or other.
Proccessors: $1200-$4000 | The most expensive part, the E5520, the lowest CPU you can get a Mac Pro with costs $370-$400 USD, and you need 2 of them, thats at LEAST $1200 CND, and depending on your needs, the top teir 2.93GHz X5570 costs $1400 USD EACH, thats around $4000 CND for both of them.
Motherboard: $600-$900 | Depending on the slot configurations and features you require, but even then I think $600 pushing it, at launch anyways. I don't think you'll find much good stuff under the $700 range.
Memory: $200-$700 | Depending on the range you want to go, $150 for 6GB of 6x1GB 1066 DDR3 ECC, up to $700 for 24GB of 12x2GB of 1333 DDR3 ECC. Of course depending on your application/needs you can easily blow WAY more than $600.
HardDrive: $80-$600 | Depending on your needs, $80 for a decent 640GB drive or upto $600 for 4 1TB drives with a decent raid card
Video Card: $50-$700 | Again it all depends on your needs, if all your doing is CPU intensive work, then a low end card is fine, but if you need multi monitor configurations or GPU intensive work, the sky could be your limit(FireGL's, Quattros, etc) easily spending thousands here. I'll assume multi monitor use while also needing some power for a $700 limit.
Power Supply: $250-$500 | No way your gonna get away with anything less than a 1Kw PSU, the Nehalem is one hot power hungry beast, and this has 2 of them on top of everything else! That and the need for stable power is also a must that could drives up costs.
Operating System: $200-$900 | Asuming your using some flavor of Windows or Linux w/ support pakage. Sorry guys but an OS is a must, and even linux won't be free if *properly* used as a workstation as you'll want support.
Everything Else: $150-$500 | You know, the little things, like DVD Burners, Blu-Ray drives, Keyboards, mice, etc.
Very nice effort there.:) But sorry, those prices are very exaggerated for some of the components mentioned.

Lets talk about the PSU:

The Nehalem Xeons 55xx series at 80watt parts. The RAM is very efficient at its 1.5V rating (maybe 15watts for 6 sticks at full load), and 8watt hard drive, 35watt motherboard, 20watt optical drive, and 180 watts maximum for 4x GT120s.

That adds up to less than 500 watts. You can get a solid 80PLUS Corsair VX550 for around $70.

Next, the case:

A case of similar construction like the LL V1010 won't cost more than $350 in most places, and its better constructed, larger, and has more airflow.

Video Cards:

The new Mac Pros don't support any workstation cards, so you can't use them. Maxing out the graphics to make it similar to Apples MAXIMUM graphics options (4x GT120s) won't cost more than $230.

Motherboard:

No more than $650 for a motherboard with similar features to Apples. This can be seen from the launch prices of the 5400s and the 5100 based chipsets.

And your everything else category is very exaggerated as well. So much so that I won't even bother.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old March 16, 2009, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavat23 View Post
Very nice effort there.:) But sorry, those prices are very exaggerated for some of the components mentioned.

The Nehalem Xeons 55xx series at 80watt parts. The RAM is very efficient at its 1.5V rating (maybe 15watts for 6 sticks at full load), and 8watt hard drive, 35watt motherboard, 20watt optical drive, and 180 watts maximum for 4x GT120s.
First of all, the chipset is a 45watt TDP chipset in the first place, and depending on if you fo with a T36S or T36D based motherboard can push the TDP of the chipset to 90w BEFORE even considering the rest of the motherboard. Nice try, but the MB is going to be more like 60-120watt TDP depending on the model.

Oh and as to the video card? If you cared to properly read my post, I'm assuming your buying a base model Mac Pro and buying all the rest of the parts yourself, so that could easily mean something going with power hungry Quattro's or as efficient as integrated.
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Originally Posted by Salavat23 View Post
That adds up to less than 500 watts. You can get a solid 80PLUS Corsair VX550 for around $70.
Lets see, this is a WORKSTATION, as nice as the Corsair PSU's are, your not gonna be powering a workstation with a 550Watt PSU unless you ignore the video card entirely/go with integrated.
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Originally Posted by Salavat23 View Post
A case of similar construction like the LL V1010 won't cost more than $350 in most places, and its better constructed, larger, and has more airflow.
My numbers exaggerated eh? I started at a base of $300 for a nice case, upwards if $500. You've never built a workstation for a client have you? I have, and depending on the features they need some of those SuperMicro, Norco, CHENBRO, etc cases, while they may not be as pretty as a Lian Li, cost a pretty penny.

Oh and better constructed? Don't get me wrong, I'm a great Lian Li lover, and have owned many cases made by them, but better constructed than a Apple Mac Pro case? As If, those Apple cases are engineered from hell and back, sure a Lian Li might be able to fit more HDD's and etc, but the Mac Pro case is SOLID.
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Originally Posted by Salavat23 View Post
The new Mac Pros don't support any workstation cards, so you can't use them. Maxing out the graphics to make it similar to Apples MAXIMUM graphics options (4x GT120s) won't cost more than $230.
Oh god, why do I bother? At this point you obviously didn't read my whole post. I'll just copy over what I said above.

Oh and as to the video card? If you cared to properly read my post, I'm assuming your buying a base model Mac Pro and buying all the rest of the parts yourself, so that could easily mean something going with power hungry Quattro's or as efficient as integrated.

And from my POST.

*Assuming you upgrade only the CPU's(for a total of $6919) via Apple and do the rest of the upgrades by yourself, RAM, HD's, etc.

Learn to read, I'm assuming that on the higher end of my pricing you go with uber Quattro cards.
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Originally Posted by Salavat23 View Post
No more than $650 for a motherboard with similar features to Apples. This can be seen from the launch prices of the 5400s and the 5100 based chipsets.
Did you even read my post? When comparing the lower end of things I DID assume a pricing of $600 for comparable features, BUT when building a workstation I merely listed the RANGE of pricing some workstation motherboards go.



What was the point you were trying to make anyways? If it was that you can build a *basic* Workstation yourself for cheaper than a *basic* Apple Mac Pro, than you failed, as I DO NOT DISAGREE WITH THAT, infact thats what my original post showed. Also, if you lurked enough on these forums you'd know that I am not a Mac zealot. I'm FAR from it.

I just get sick and tired of people not realizing that the value ISN'T THAT BAD, and when you go into the higher end or compare it to a Dell/HP, its actually a better buy/value. The Mac Pro has its place, and while *I* would never buy one, the people buying them aren't stupid like some would like to make them out to be. There are good reasons why one would go with one.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old March 17, 2009, 09:43 AM
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As long as you compare base systems the prices are close,its when you add in upgrades (when Apple throws away the lube and folds you over the counter) that prices get outta hand.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old March 17, 2009, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Ogdin View Post
As long as you compare base systems the prices are close,its when you add in upgrades (when Apple throws away the lube and folds you over the counter) that prices get outta hand.
This has always been the case with Apple.

Whenever friends and family go with an apple machine I always recommend them not to buy any upgrades direct from apple, but rather get someone like me to do it for them. Like with anything(building your own PC, repairing your own car, etc), you can save SOOOO much money when you do the upgrades yourself!
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old March 17, 2009, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Chilly View Post
This has always been the case with Apple.

Whenever friends and family go with an apple machine I always recommend them not to buy any upgrades direct from apple, but rather get someone like me to do it for them. Like with anything(building your own PC, repairing your own car, etc), you can save SOOOO much money when you do the upgrades yourself!
It reminds me of taking my car to do a tuneup at the dealership and it alway cost twice the amount of a regular car repair shop.

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  #37 (permalink)  
Old March 19, 2009, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Chilly View Post
First of all, the chipset is a 45watt TDP chipset in the first place, and depending on if you fo with a T36S or T36D based motherboard can push the TDP of the chipset to 90w BEFORE even considering the rest of the motherboard. Nice try, but the MB is going to be more like 60-120watt TDP depending on the model.

Lets see, this is a WORKSTATION, as nice as the Corsair PSU's are, your not gonna be powering a workstation with a 550Watt PSU unless you ignore the video card entirely/go with integrated.
If you've bothered to read any reviews, the Octad 2.93GHz Mac Pro uses about 350watts on full load with a GT120.

That means that your comment is completely absurd that the mainboard alone will use up to 120 watts. That is laughable when you do the math to see the 100% full load results of the Octad Mac Pro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly View Post
My numbers exaggerated eh? I started at a base of $300 for a nice case, upwards if $500. You've never built a workstation for a client have you? I have, and depending on the features they need some of those SuperMicro, Norco, CHENBRO, etc cases, while they may not be as pretty as a Lian Li, cost a pretty penny.
Those are mainly server cases. The Mac Pro is more of a high-end desktop/workstation, not really a server.

And if you have built workstations for clients, how can someone trust you if you cant tell the difference between a high-end consumer/workstation case and server orientated case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly View Post
Oh and better constructed? Don't get me wrong, I'm a great Lian Li lover, and have owned many cases made by them, but better constructed than a Apple Mac Pro case? As If, those Apple cases are engineered from hell and back, sure a Lian Li might be able to fit more HDD's and etc, but the Mac Pro case is SOLID.
The Mac Pro case is solid? Yeah, as if the 1-2mm Aluminum they use on the front cheese-grate is solid.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly View Post
Oh and as to the video card? If you cared to properly read my post, I'm assuming your buying a base model Mac Pro and buying all the rest of the parts yourself, so that could easily mean something going with power hungry Quattro's or as efficient as integrated.
First of all, Mac Pros do not have integrated graphics.

And many of the people buying these machines are not that interested in getting their hands dirty with user-upgrades, but rather to get it, and start work on it as fast as possible.

And if you had bothered to care about your own posts, you would know that there is no such thing as a Quattro card. It is the Quadro line-up. And it is very ignorant of you to assume that all of them are power hungry. If you had a single brain cell up there with any knowledge of nVidia's Quadro line-up, you would know that they have a wide variety of cards, many of which are designed to be very efficient workhorses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly View Post
What was the point you were trying to make anyways? If it was that you can build a *basic* Workstation yourself for cheaper than a *basic* Apple Mac Pro, than you failed, as I DO NOT DISAGREE WITH THAT, infact thats what my original post showed. Also, if you lurked enough on these forums you'd know that I am not a Mac zealot. I'm FAR from it.
Why are you bringing that your own personal opinion into this subject?

Frankly, I couldn't care less if you liked Macs or not. I was just offering a different perspective. The last thing I need from your response to my post is your life story.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly View Post
I just get sick and tired of people not realizing that the value ISN'T THAT BAD, and when you go into the higher end or compare it to a Dell/HP, its actually a better buy/value. The Mac Pro has its place, and while *I* would never buy one, the people buying them aren't stupid like some would like to make them out to be. There are good reasons why one would go with one.
Now tell me, how the hell can you compare the new Mac Pros value to that of Dells or HPs if the Mac Pro is the only workstation for sale at the moment using Gainstown CPUs?

And once again, I don't care if you will buy it or not. Can you possibly give one single response without your emotions vomited all over your comments?

Last edited by Salavat23; March 19, 2009 at 08:13 PM.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old March 19, 2009, 08:13 PM
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Can you possibly give one single response without your emotions vomited all over your comments?
I smell contradiction.

BTW, I have brown eyes.

I have no place in this argument. Have a nice day!
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old March 19, 2009, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake_HT View Post
I smell contradiction.
Indeed. Me opposing his emotions is showing emotion in itself.

But you have to fight fire with fire.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old March 19, 2009, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavat23 View Post
snip
/me facepalm

I... I don't have words to meet you, I'm not going to take your post apart point by point....

Context, context is everything. You missed the context I was trying to convey ENTIRELY. I was giving the PC specs as low as possible while still being comparable to the Mac Pro. The Mac Pro for example may not have Integrated graphics, but one you build on your own usually does, and for a basic system its usually enough, regardless of the fact that the Mac uses a dedicated card. Depending on the type of work loads you will be doing, you may not need a dedicated card. I'd say that fro the Mac Pro its actually a downside, as it adds to the cost needlessly.

I was cutting them both down to basics to compare, and then scaling them both up, you seem to have missed the context I was trying to convey entirely. As for the Quattro/Quadro, I big deal, I mis-spelt it, now your just getting personal. As for me telling my life story, one line about how most here know me as unbiased? If that was the story of my life, that's one hell of a crappy one.

You turned it personal from the beginning , and I'm not going to stoop to your level. Just to be nice, I'll price out a "Workstation" system using your pricing/requirements, I'll even go into specifics of what part's I'd use. I'll let the facts do the talking for me.

Case: $350 | LL V1010 (Your choise, your pricing)
Proccessors: $1200 | 2x E5520 (lowest you can get the Mac Pro with) BX80602E5520
Motherboard: $600 | X8DAi - Great "lower end"(I use this term lightly) board with more typical "Worksation" features. X8DAI-O = Retail, X8DAI-B = Bulk
Memory: $140 | 6GB Kit of ECC DDR3 3x2GB Kit KVR1333D3N9K3/6G
HardDrive: $100 | WD 640GB Black Edition WD6401AALS
Video Card: $90 | nVidia GT 120 (Rebranded 9500GT) part number varies
Power Supply: $120 | Your not going to get away with 500Watts, Corsair TX750 750Watt should be plenty in a base Dual Processor System though. CMPSU-750TX
Operating System: $200 | Vista Business OEM Full 66J-05523
Everything Else: $150 | Keyboard, Mouse, DVD Drive, etc, depending on how nice you want, should be enough for basic level stuff.

Total: $2950

Assuming you drop the PSU down to the 550Watt(which I wouldn't recommend) that would only bring it down to $2900. Don't agree with the prices I used? Go look them up your self, I even provided part numbers, and you'll see I used the average-low of what I could find. Now, lets go back to my original post, and see what I got for the low end, shall we?

Quote:
Total: $3030 Before Taxes
A Difference of $80-$120. Essentially the same.

My original point, from my original post, stands.

Quote:
Sure $800 more on the low end seems like alot but you get a better top teir motherboard, a beautiful, but yet functuanal case, its fully supported and backed by Apple if you have issues(vs supporting everything yourself) and etc. Hell! If your a student its only $3399!

Again, don't get me wrong, if it came right down to it I would build a workstation myself, as I prefer the control and customization I can have. All my point is, is that Apples aren't as bad as you guys make them out to be. They are a corporation, they are out there to make money, not to be your best buddy, and there is NOTHING wrong with that.
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