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Old August 9, 2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by NyteOwl View Post
Just a nit to pick with this as it is incorrect. A UPS is an Uninterruptable Power Supply. It provided it's output on a continuous basis with outhaving to "switch over" from mains. That is a Standby Power Supply that switches over on a voltage drop. SPU's can produce a small spike at changeover and are usually used on equipment more tolerant of such things.



No, A decent UPS will not function without its batteries. The output voltage from a UPS is supplied by the batteries. The remainder of the supply exists to turn the battery's DC into an AC signal and to charge the batteries and monitor the mains.



It depends on the model. I would guess the lower end ones are probably modified since wave while the mid to upper end ones are Pure sine wave. To be certain about a particular model, check APC's website. They have plenty of information on UPSes and power conditioning in general.

Then plz can u tell link i posted is suitable?
  #42 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by AkG View Post
OK...just so I understand you correctly. You are claiming that ALL consumer UPS devices put out square waves and not pure sine. If so you are....you are full of shite.
First read only what was posted. Do not reinterprete in 'black and white' terms. Knowledge always means numbers - perspective. Most UPSes are square waves, stepped waves, etc. To get anything approaching what you think is a sine wave costs typicaly about $1000 and up. Why would anyone spend $1000 when no such 'purity' is needed by electronics?

No evil manufacturers were defined or even implied. Just another example of 'black and white' thinking. They did not lie. Manufacturers summarized (for those who only read sales brochures) what that square wave output is - a pure sine wave output. Square waves, stepped waves, spikes, etc are all a sum of pure sine waves. They did not lie. You are simply describing evil because you forgot a basic concept taught in high school math.

taimoorali007 - crappiest power from the 'dirtiest' UPS is also good power for electronics. That same power can be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. But due to what all electronic power supplies do, that same 'crappy' power from a UPS or AC mains is converted by each power supply, first to even 'crappiest' power, and then to rock solid, ideal, perfectly clean and stable, low voltage DC. One of many functions required to be inside a power supply. In short - an anomaly long ago made irrelevant. And irrelevant to your original questions.

The details: Does not matter how clean or 'dirty' your AC is. Electronics converts it to much higher voltage, radio frequency spikes. Make AC power even 'dirtier'. As I said, 'crappier'. And then superior filters, AVR circuits, etc inside your electronics convert that 'dirtiest' highest voltage, radio fequency spikes into perfectly clean DC voltage. Because the best AVR, etc is already inside electronics. Again, where is the best electricity 'cleaning'? Inside electronics after your electronics makes that AC power even 'dirtier'.

Another anomaly: What happens when AC voltage drops so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity? Due to superior AVR inside electronics - that remains a perfectly ideal AC voltage. A reality that was defined perviously with numbers. How often do your lights dim that low? Why then are you worried about anomalies that do not exist?

One anomaly not made irrelevant by electronics is a blackout. Blackout protection is the UPS's function. But you never said anything about blackouts. Your AC main concerns are other anomalies. Why are others so worried about blackouts - a problem you did not ask about?

Every reason to get a UPS was not a solution to any of your original problems.

Stick to the anomalies you asked about. UPS - a temporary and 'dirty' power source during a blackout - does not address any of them.
  #43 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by taimoorali007 View Post
Okay, got it but m asking for UPS also that can give backup without any issue and protection also during AC power, or still first i have to fix wiring for protection?
Do you want hardware protection? Or do you want temporary power during a blackout? Each is a completely different anomaly. Nothing solves both.

If a UPS does hardware protection, then a manufacturer spec numbers that says so is posted. The only UPS number for protection is near zero. Just enough above zero so that naive consumers will recommend it as 100% protection. In reality, protection already inside appliances is better.

Your concern is an anomaly that can overwhelm existing protection. That was stated, quite bluntly, by one who has actually done this stuff professionally. You asked about hardware protection. That means earth ground - for all two wire and three wire buildings.

Any recommendation without numbers should be ignored as an example of knowledge from myth and advertising. Stick to your original problems. And understand that any claim devoid of manufacturer spec numbers and well proven science is best ignored. You are paying too much attention to and being confused by posts that are obviously irrelevant to your original problems. Posts based in popular urban myths because spec numbers and necessary facts are missing. Have only confused you. Defined from the beginning is what every post must discuss to answer your original concern:
Quote:
1) Wall receptacle safety ground is for human safety (and will help eliminate noise due to leakage currents). 2) Earth ground is required for human safety and also does transistor safety. Those are for voltages that may be tens, hundreds, or thousands of volts. 3) A ground that is common only to interconnected appliances addresses the ground loop problem or other similar noise (leakage) problems. That ground is for voltages that are single digit or less. That create noise; not harm to hardware or humans.
  #44 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by westom View Post
Do you want hardware protection? Or do you want temporary power during a blackout? Each is a completely different anomaly. Nothing solves both.

If a UPS does hardware protection, then a manufacturer spec numbers that says so is posted. The only UPS number for protection is near zero. Just enough above zero so that naive consumers will recommend it as 100% protection. In reality, protection already inside appliances is better.

Your concern is an anomaly that can overwhelm existing protection. That was stated, quite bluntly, by one who has actually done this stuff professionally. You asked about hardware protection. That means earth ground - for all two wire and three wire buildings.

Any recommendation without numbers should be ignored as an example of knowledge from myth and advertising. Stick to your original problems. And understand that any claim devoid of manufacturer spec numbers and well proven science is best ignored. You are paying too much attention to and being confused by posts that are obviously irrelevant to your original problems. Posts based in popular urban myths because spec numbers and necessary facts are missing. Have only confused you. Defined from the beginning is what every post must discuss to answer your original concern:
Just out of curiosity since you have all these tools and such.
Can you show me a modern UPS Input and Output Wave forms with Low Voltage and Noise on the lines and see what kind of Ripple and Waveform is present in both an Online and Line Interactive models? Both on the Input and Output.
You are so apt to say numbers this and numbers that;

I want some numbers, and I am sure many viewing do too. I've actually requested documentation from all the Major Players in the Power Quality Industry so I can do some comparisions and learning. *EDIT* - Once I get the PDF's I will gladly post them here so we can all learn.

-ST
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Last edited by Soultribunal; August 9, 2012 at 01:46 PM.
  #45 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 01:31 PM
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I honestly do not know where you shop...but for MUCH less than 1K you can get a good sine wave output UPS. IDK maybe you just shop at Futureshop? Or maybe south of the border the prices are out to lunch?

You are the one putting it into black and white by making sweeping grand statements...just like you have in ALL your posts.

Yes, a good PUS can convert dirty power to pure DC. BUT it does take a toll on them and can shorten their life. Sometimes significantly. This is another area you are talking out your ass on. Just like you think a brown out wont hurt the PSU.

YOU have made lots of black and white statements regarding UPS and now PSUs.... So put up or shut up. Show some whitepapers or 3rd party PROOF of your rather absurd statements.

Kthxbye

Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
First read only what was posted. Do not reinterprete in 'black and white' terms. Knowledge always means numbers - perspective. Most UPSes are square waves, stepped waves, etc. To get anything approaching what you think is a sine wave costs typicaly about $1000 and up. Why would anyone spend $1000 when no such 'purity' is needed by electronics?

No evil manufacturers were defined or even implied. Just another example of 'black and white' thinking. They did not lie. Manufacturers summarized (for those who only read sales brochures) what that square wave output is - a pure sine wave output. Square waves, stepped waves, spikes, etc are all a sum of pure sine waves. They did not lie. You are simply describing evil because you forgot a basic concept taught in high school math.

taimoorali007 - crappiest power from the 'dirtiest' UPS is also good power for electronics. That same power can be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. But due to what all electronic power supplies do, that same 'crappy' power from a UPS or AC mains is converted by each power supply, first to even 'crappiest' power, and then to rock solid, ideal, perfectly clean and stable, low voltage DC. One of many functions required to be inside a power supply. In short - an anomaly long ago made irrelevant. And irrelevant to your original questions.

The details: Does not matter how clean or 'dirty' your AC is. Electronics converts it to much higher voltage, radio frequency spikes. Make AC power even 'dirtier'. As I said, 'crappier'. And then superior filters, AVR circuits, etc inside your electronics convert that 'dirtiest' highest voltage, radio fequency spikes into perfectly clean DC voltage. Because the best AVR, etc is already inside electronics. Again, where is the best electricity 'cleaning'? Inside electronics after your electronics makes that AC power even 'dirtier'.

Another anomaly: What happens when AC voltage drops so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity? Due to superior AVR inside electronics - that remains a perfectly ideal AC voltage. A reality that was defined perviously with numbers. How often do your lights dim that low? Why then are you worried about anomalies that do not exist?

One anomaly not made irrelevant by electronics is a blackout. Blackout protection is the UPS's function. But you never said anything about blackouts. Your AC main concerns are other anomalies. Why are others so worried about blackouts - a problem you did not ask about?

Every reason to get a UPS was not a solution to any of your original problems.

Stick to the anomalies you asked about. UPS - a temporary and 'dirty' power source during a blackout - does not address any of them.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 01:36 PM
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As far as I can see , all of APC's, Tripplite, Eaton Units that are Sub $500 and North of $130 have AVR (Auto Voltage Regulation) , Power Line conditioning, Surge Supression. And most +200 Have Pure Sine Waveform. So, they DO list protection as a Key feature of the UPS< so that in turn means that they provide protection right?

Or am I missing something? I would love to see some confirmed docs either way. 3rd party would be even better.
Because I can't count the number of sites that putting a UPS that did line conditioning in helped the Telecom and Servers.

-ST
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Last edited by Soultribunal; August 9, 2012 at 01:46 PM.
  #47 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 02:05 PM
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I Google a little bit and I found a guy who test a APC and the output is sine wave

Line-Interactive UPS Switching Transients

Here HP describe and show few of their model

HP Parallel Uninterruptible Power System*-* Notice: Uninterruptible Power System (UPS) - Best Practices for Selecting an HP UPS - c02645781 - HP Business Support Center

and finally a guy test few APC, some have Sine other ( cheap ) have a square wave inverter

Power quality from various backup devices

Another one, the guy describe it as " AC output of an APC UPS in for new batteries, compared to the power converter, it is a near perfect sine output."

AC Output from UPS | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
  #48 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Soultribunal View Post
Or am I missing something? I would love to see some confirmed docs either way. 3rd party would be even better.
Because I can't count the number of sites that putting a UPS that did line conditioning in helped the Telecom and Servers.
Again, if that UPS does what so many have claimed (due to an education by advertising), then the poster has also quoted manufacturer spec numbers. Remember, the majority that also *knew* Saddam had WMDs? Myths are so easily promoted by wild speculation; especially when numbers are ignored. Some numbers only posted by the few who know this stuff.

A UPS that claims a sine wave output - subjectively - also 'forgets' to include numbers such as %THD. The utility - a third party - showed a classic UPS sine wave. Maybe a 20% THD. Dirtiest power in the house. And perfectly ideal for all electronics. That is the point repeatedly ignored. Due to superior protection inside electronics, then the 'dirtiest' UPS (or cleaner power from AC mains) is sufficient.

All UPS discussion should end there. Nobody needs a magic box to 'clean' electricity. Because, and by far, the best cleaner inside the house is already inside electronics. Best AVR, line conditioning, etc means even crappiest UPS power is sufficient. Why would anyone spend $1000 for 'cleaner' electricity that is not even needed?

A 240 volt UPS outputting 400 volt square waves with spikes exceeding 500 volts - sufficient and good power for electronics. Again, numbers that come from some UPSes that power electronics without any harm. BEcause electonics already do better AVR, line conditiong, etc.

View spec numbers for protection. Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does that UPS claims to absorb? Hundreds? Again, hundreds is near zero. So many just know by ignoring these numbers. Near zero. That UPS with 'total surge protection' also has near zero protection. Don't take my word for it. Everyone can post each number that defines protection.

And still posts, irrelevant to the OP's original questions, continue because a UPS must do magic to AC electricity. Nonsense. A UPS has one function: temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout. Why is 'dirtier' power better? Way too complex for some here AND irrelevant to the OP's questions.

When is power output from a UPS cleanest? When a UPS connects AC mains directly to electronics - as demonstrated by left side waveforms from a typical sine wave UPS as provided by a third party, AC electric utility - Duke Energy:
Tech Tip 03 - Indiana Business-Duke Energy

taimoorali007's questions answered by addressing his concern:
Quote:
1) Wall receptacle safety ground is for human safety (and will help eliminate noise due to leakage currents). 2) Earth ground is required for human safety and also does transistor safety. Those are for voltages that may be tens, hundreds, or thousands of volts. 3) A ground that is common only to interconnected appliances addresses the ground loop problem or other similar noise (leakage) problems. That ground is for voltages that are single digit or less. That create noise; not harm to hardware or humans.
Why are so many recommending a UPS when even UPS spec numbers do not exist? Why are so many confusing taimoorali007 with irrelevant recommendations based only in advertising myths? Why are so many UPS recommendations made devoid of any numbers?
  #49 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 03:08 PM
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We have stated numerous times that he should get an electrician in and then and ONLY then get a good UPS.

You have made wild ass claims and still refuse to back them up.

"I" have claimed you are full of shite....which is easily verifiable by the shear mindboggling crap you have written in this thread.

YOU have muddied the water and told the OP that his mains power is good enough and to not bother with a UPS as its 'diritier'. You sir are a fool, if you think NOTHING is better than something. You boy-o are a fool if you think that there is only one issue going on with the OP.

The first question I ask people when their system 'dies' is if its on a UPS. I have seen it too many damn times to count that crap AC power has killed a rig....yet YOU claim that this shouldnt happen and / or would happen more often IF more people used a good quality UPS. Would love to see some 3rd party backups to your claims.

Fact 1. Power spikes can kill a PSU
Fact 2. Brown outs can kill a rig.
Fact 3. A good UPS can save rigs and PSUs from damage
Fact 4. A good UPS does NOT cost 1K.
Fact 5. You are full of shite.
Fact 6. Only YOU still think that all UPS use square wave output
Fact 7. See fact 6 to why 5 is correct

So once again.....Show us some data to backup your claims. OR stop confusing the OP with your personal delusions. Stick to facts.
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Last edited by AkG; August 9, 2012 at 03:27 PM.
  #50 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 03:16 PM
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Im a bit confused by Westom and his posts, and how it relates to solving the OP's problems.

Im not sure where you're wiring Westom, but in North America "wall receptable safety ground", "earth ground" and "common ground" are all the same in house wiring. Hell, your neutral is connected via your breaker panel to ground as well. There is only one 'ground' in north america. Outside lines coming in to your house are only usually two wire; Two phase 120v, aka "210". Their is no "return line" per se, that goes outside the house since it is Alternating Current, and the ground connector (neutral, common, etc, etc) is your return line. You can wiki that to back it up.

To answer the OP's question, from what Ive researched about Pakistan, it is a 220ish VAC system, which I'm assuming is using 1 phase only. So you're main line in is a single wire? Grounding/Neutral would be only done on the house hold level, back to your panel (or however its done in Pakistan?)

I'm working with limited information here, really, and associating it at all with the way we do it in North America is a stretch.

Oh, and try to ignore the Troll, people
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