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Old August 9, 2012, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by westom View Post
He has confused something that costs $tens of thousands with something that costs $hundreds. Both are completely different devices that happen to share a common name.

Your 240 volt UPS may output 400 volt square waves and spikes well above 500 volts. Due to superior voltage regulation inside electronics, that 'dirty' power is converted to ideal power. Best AVR and other functions are already inside electronic power supplies.

Same 'dirty' UPS that is ideal power for any electronics can also be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. All electronics are so robust, electronics have superior AVR, and a UPS selling only for $hundreds is made as cheaply as possible. That UPS also does not do anything for the OP's original AC power concerns such as two wire circuits.

What does a UPS do? Connects your computer directly to AC mains. And slowly switches to battery power during a blackout.

What does that power look like? A utility shows what happens when cleanest power from AC mains (left side) is replaced by 'dirty' UPS power (right side of picture). Note the changed waveform when a UPS switched from AC (clean sine wave) to battery ('dirty' square waves):
Tech Tip 03 - Indiana Business-Duke Energy

If a UPS output is 'cleaner', then he has posted manufacturer spec numbers. He cannot. Even the manufacture does not claim 'cleaner' power. His claims are subjective - how urban myths are invented. He says he knows only because he knows - classic urban myth.

Another device that does 'clean' power (also called a UPS), says so with spec numbers such as %THD. He cannot post %THD numbers because 1) the UPS outputs 'dirtier' power, and 2) only hearsay (no numbers) claim 'cleaner' power. Claims made without spec numbers are often an urban myths or junk science reasoning. Meanwhile, an AC power utility shows what the typical UPS power looks like - 'dirty'.

It is temporary power. A power supply routinely converts 'dirty' UPS power into cleanest power. Because best AVR and power cleaning is already inside that supply. 'Cleaning' is the job of every supply. Meanwhile, the UPS does not solve any of the OP's original concerns. UPS is recommended to solve a problem that does not exist.

The UPS shown in your graph there probably is converting it to square or Stepped approximation to a Sine wave. Most UPS's worth there name like APC and Eaton use Pure Sine Wave form for their output waveforms and are not subjected to that so called 'dirty' power. Even the Cyberpower units for $200-300 will do that.

I am truly sorry that I don't have the tools or means to prove that what I say, is truth. I don't have the ability to document it and show that what you are saying is not the case. The units that protect our Telecom servers and PBX's can range up into the thousands but for most smaller CICS and MICS , BCM50/450 applications the Smart UPS series from APC is a common point we go to and those are hardly in the thousands. As well, most devices we use are Online where the power flows through the AVR circutry and not the battery so the output is still pure sine , with just points in between to regulate the spikes that a household can have when turning on devices that draw lots of current.
Again, if I had the proper tools I could show that my UPS's at home when I turn on certain devices filter out the V spike without pumping through the battery.

I, am not trying to be the 'urban' myth here.

None of this solves his main concern. Let us focus on that.

-ST
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Soultribunal View Post
I am truly sorry that I don't have the tools or means to prove that what I say, is truth. I don't have the ability to document it and show that what you are saying is not the case.
And again, scams are promoted because someone knows by ignoring all numbers.

Let's take that stepped approximation to a Sine wave. I have a UPS whose output is even 'dirtier'. And the manufacturer also called that a sine wave output. Did the manufacturer lie? Or course not. He simply used his high school mathematics. Square waves and spikes are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves. So your 'pure sine wave' UPS can also be those same stepped waves.

Is it? Is your many $thousand UPS that 'dirty'? You must have spec numbers. No sine wave is zero %THD. Most sine wave UPSes sold to consumers look like this:
Tech Tip 03 - Indiana Business-Duke Energy

Why do I know? I own and use an oscilloscope. I ask damning questions. Am always suspicioius that doubtful of any claims made without numbers. Those UPS recommendations are the urban myths created by not providing numbers.

What does a UPS do for taimoorali007's original problem? Well the engineer who has numbers and waveforms says that UPS does nothing. The engineer, who even designed power supplies, says the best AVR and other functions are already inside those supplies.

The engineer who did this stuff for many decades also defined three different grounds. Defined different anomalies (destructive transients, noise, etc). And then said what each ground will accomplish.

Hardware protection is about earth ground. Wall receptacle safety ground does not provide hardware protection. UPS or powr strips do nothing for the missing ground. Even static electric protection is about another ground located elsewhere - underneath the shoe.

A UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout. Those other solutions are already inside electronics. A UPS, much 'dirtier' than anything we have discussed, is still ideal power to electronics. Because electronics are so robust as to convert even that other 'dirtiest' UPS into ideal perfect voltages. And still irrelevant to his household wiring questions.
  #33 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by westom View Post
And again, scams are promoted because someone knows by ignoring all numbers.

Let's take that stepped approximation to a Sine wave. I have a UPS whose output is even 'dirtier'. And the manufacturer also called that a sine wave output. Did the manufacturer lie? Or course not. He simply used his high school mathematics. Square waves and spikes are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves. So your 'pure sine wave' UPS can also be those same stepped waves.

Is it? Is your many $thousand UPS that 'dirty'? You must have spec numbers. No sine wave is zero %THD. Most sine wave UPSes sold to consumers look like this:
Tech Tip 03 - Indiana Business-Duke Energy

Why do I know? I own and use an oscilloscope. I ask damning questions. Am always suspicioius that doubtful of any claims made without numbers. Those UPS recommendations are the urban myths created by not providing numbers.

What does a UPS do for taimoorali007's original problem? Well the engineer who has numbers and waveforms says that UPS does nothing. The engineer, who even designed power supplies, says the best AVR and other functions are already inside those supplies.

The engineer who did this stuff for many decades also defined three different grounds. Defined different anomalies (destructive transients, noise, etc). And then said what each ground will accomplish.

Hardware protection is about earth ground. Wall receptacle safety ground does not provide hardware protection. UPS or powr strips do nothing for the missing ground. Even static electric protection is about another ground located elsewhere - underneath the shoe.

A UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout. Those other solutions are already inside electronics. A UPS, much 'dirtier' than anything we have discussed, is still ideal power to electronics. Because electronics are so robust as to convert even that other 'dirtiest' UPS into ideal perfect voltages. And still irrelevant to his household wiring questions.
Okay, you obviously missed the point where I said we were detracting from the OP's original problem, so without causing any further distrubance (of which I am guilty of doing, and its against forum rules) let us tackle the OP's issue.

You obviously have a higher education that me, I'm still learning. YOu have the tools, thats great. I am sure if I had the tools I could go out and do what you do.
I don't.

So please, help him fix his problem.

-ST
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Soultribunal View Post
So please, help him fix his problem.
Solutions were summarized earlier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
1) Wall receptacle safety ground is for human safety (and will help eliminate noise due to leakage currents). 2) Earth ground is required for human safety and also does transistor safety. Those are for voltages that may be tens, hundreds, or thousands of volts. 3) A ground that is common only to interconnected appliances addresses the ground loop problem or other similar noise (leakage) problems. That ground is for voltages that are single digit or less. That create noise; not harm to hardware or humans.
Of course details and exceptions apply. This summary describes where the various anomalies are addressed. Where to start. More important to protecting appliances is the earth ground - where utility wires enter the building.

Not in that summary was static electricity which involves another ground. No solution exists for all anomalies. Each must be addressed individually.

A concern for protecting appliances is completely different from the 'tingle' and resulting concern created by an appliance that is missing its safety ground.
  #35 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 10:23 AM
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OK...just so I understand you correctly. You are claiming that ALL consumer UPS devices put out square waves and not pure sine. If so you are....you are full of shite.

If you claim that the mfg'ers are just FALSELY claiming pure sine on their pure sine models...then you are not only full of shite but going to be 'full' of some APC lawyer's and their 'appendages' if you say that to long and too loudly in the wrong places (like at your workplace). You simply bought a model that does square output. Many of the cheaper ones do. You got screwed and now are trying to shift blame from your own mistake to the 'evil' mfgers. BUT dont try and spout that FUD to people asking for HELP that dont know how foolish what you are saying really is.

In other words...'citation needed' on your rather bold ass claims. K thx bye.

NOW I agree on the rest of what you are saying...but damn you are just plain wrong on the UPS end of things.


To the OP:
I've used APC models (and a bunch of others) at the enterprise level, SOHO and the consumer level. Yes the less than 1bill'ers output square...but the days of ALL of them doing this are looooong gone. UPS'es have advanced a lot in the past decade. APC, tripplite and the others would NOT advertise pure sine (without a * claiming its just a marketing term) UNLESS it did output pure sine wave power. They would have been sued into oblivion a long time ago otherwise. MFG'ers are VERY careful on claims like that.

The 2-3 bill range though is FULL of UPS' that output pure sine wave power. They ADVERTISE this....and the ones they say jack on...dont and use square. Is this a good stopgap solution....maybe...maybe not. Do it right and get a cert'ed electrician in and do your whole house....and do it NOW!! THEN stick a UPS on it.

Power from the mains is NOT cleaner than that from a good pure sine UPS. Only a hack would say that. Otherwise there would be almost no need of UPS devices. Hell let that so called engineer take that line of reasoning over to a hardcore A/V forum and see how fast you get burnt at a stake....as NO ONE with a 10K or more A/V setup would trust the power coming from the electric company WIHTOUT extra filtering.


Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
And again, scams are promoted because someone knows by ignoring all numbers.

Let's take that stepped approximation to a Sine wave. I have a UPS whose output is even 'dirtier'. And the manufacturer also called that a sine wave output. Did the manufacturer lie? Or course not. He simply used his high school mathematics. Square waves and spikes are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves. So your 'pure sine wave' UPS can also be those same stepped waves.

Is it? Is your many $thousand UPS that 'dirty'? You must have spec numbers. No sine wave is zero %THD. Most sine wave UPSes sold to consumers look like this:
Tech Tip 03 - Indiana Business-Duke Energy

Why do I know? I own and use an oscilloscope. I ask damning questions. Am always suspicioius that doubtful of any claims made without numbers. Those UPS recommendations are the urban myths created by not providing numbers.

What does a UPS do for taimoorali007's original problem? Well the engineer who has numbers and waveforms says that UPS does nothing. The engineer, who even designed power supplies, says the best AVR and other functions are already inside those supplies.

The engineer who did this stuff for many decades also defined three different grounds. Defined different anomalies (destructive transients, noise, etc). And then said what each ground will accomplish.

Hardware protection is about earth ground. Wall receptacle safety ground does not provide hardware protection. UPS or powr strips do nothing for the missing ground. Even static electric protection is about another ground located elsewhere - underneath the shoe.

A UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout. Those other solutions are already inside electronics. A UPS, much 'dirtier' than anything we have discussed, is still ideal power to electronics. Because electronics are so robust as to convert even that other 'dirtiest' UPS into ideal perfect voltages. And still irrelevant to his household wiring questions.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 11:28 AM
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Active Volt Regulation is what it says, be it squarewave (bottom line model) or sine wave for top line unit you still get brown out protection and blackout

OP'er needs a ground for issue

i use an smart-ups and to me its worth having one for was geting lost data from dips and spikes from wall outlet

note you say that psu has all the filtering tools , if was dirty then it will clean it up and ups keeping steady line voltage
  #37 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 11:30 AM
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Woah! Lots of Info, m learning with you thnx but guyz lets just take it straight....Now after all this, I need few things installed with my PC, okay? And help me making the list :P

A UPS first of all! I never used UPS with but in my coutry, the units I can only get easily are APC, not Cyber Power n0 Opti-whaeva!

Just APC!!

Okay now we got here local company named "Puma", they make stablizer with Servo Motor which many claim that best than Relay System in AVR Unit for PC, well i dunno about it but u tell me. Its for making stable voltage according to our area which is 220v but cant control high voltage, it trips on that!

APC, u all guyz know are well known and so plz help me suggest the good enough APC unit, Smart series of APC are widely available! So which one cuz I cant import that good brands UPS from CA or US!

Pardon me, but my area AC is Crap! So need solution when there is light or no light. I think u got my words :)

Still wanna know "Suppose I got UPS and with no battery, then can I use that Unit jsut as a protector or Stablizer????

APC is really a Pure Sinewave or Modified Sinewave?

Last edited by Soultribunal; August 9, 2012 at 11:41 AM.
  #38 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
What does a UPS do? Connects your computer directly to AC mains. And slowly switches to battery power during a blackout.
Just a nit to pick with this as it is incorrect. A UPS is an Uninterruptable Power Supply. It provided it's output on a continuous basis with outhaving to "switch over" from mains. That is a Standby Power Supply that switches over on a voltage drop. SPU's can produce a small spike at changeover and are usually used on equipment more tolerant of such things.

Quote:
Still wanna know "Suppose I got UPS and with no battery, then can I use that Unit jsut as a protector or Stablizer????
No, A decent UPS will not function without its batteries. The output voltage from a UPS is supplied by the batteries. The remainder of the supply exists to turn the battery's DC into an AC signal and to charge the batteries and monitor the mains.

Quote:
APC is really a Pure Sinewave or Modified Sinewave?
It depends on the model. I would guess the lower end ones are probably modified since wave while the mid to upper end ones are Pure sine wave. To be certain about a particular model, check APC's website. They have plenty of information on UPSes and power conditioning in general.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by taimoorali007 View Post
Woah! Lots of Info, m learning with you thnx but guyz lets just take it straight....Now after all this, I need few things installed with my PC, okay? And help me making the list :P

A UPS first of all! I never used UPS with but in my coutry, the units I can only get easily are APC, not Cyber Power n0 Opti-whaeva!

Just APC!!

Okay now we got here local company named "Puma", they make stablizer with Servo Motor which many claim that best than Relay System in AVR Unit for PC, well i dunno about it but u tell me. Its for making stable voltage according to our area which is 220v but cant control high voltage, it trips on that!

APC, u all guyz know are well known and so plz help me suggest the good enough APC unit, Smart series of APC are widely available! So which one cuz I cant import that good brands UPS from CA or US!

Pardon me, but my area AC is Crap! So need solution when there is light or no light. I think u got my words :)

Still wanna know "Suppose I got UPS and with no battery, then can I use that Unit jsut as a protector or Stablizer????

APC is really a Pure Sinewave or Modified Sinewave?
Again your one main issue is the house wiring or whatever it was that Westom pointed out.

As for APC, they have multiple models. The Back-UPS Units are usually stepped Approximation to a Sine wave, but only when on battery. Since they are On-Line UPS the battery and the waveform that comes off from being on Battery is not what you get when the unit is just running. It does have Active AVR to clean up dips and spikes in your Mains, as well as Online Filtering to clear up other types of electrical noise that can occur.

None of this however, will solve the main wiring issue (or at least thats how it sounds) in your house.

-ST
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"Dear Iceberg, I am sorry to hear about global warming. Karma is a bitch. Signed - Titanic"

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  #40 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Soultribunal View Post
Again your one main issue is the house wiring or whatever it was that Westom pointed out.

As for APC, they have multiple models. The Back-UPS Units are usually stepped Approximation to a Sine wave, but only when on battery. Since they are On-Line UPS the battery and the waveform that comes off from being on Battery is not what you get when the unit is just running. It does have Active AVR to clean up dips and spikes in your Mains, as well as Online Filtering to clear up other types of electrical noise that can occur.

None of this however, will solve the main wiring issue (or at least thats how it sounds) in your house.

-ST

Okay, got it but m asking for UPS also that can give backup without any issue and protection also during AC power, or still first i have to fix wiring for protection?
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