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Old August 8, 2012, 11:54 AM
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in my area 220v but now its 160v, is that could be the reason?

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Originally Posted by Chareon View Post
A UPS definitely can't hurt, and I honestly can't say what affect it would have on a poor ground when it is ungrounded itself.

It doesn't necessarily have to be dirty power however. It can be pretty technical, as it relates to how/if the system uses the ground for its 0V reference but his article while not specifically aimed at computers looks like it covers all the important bits about why grounding can be such a big deal with audio noise. Grounding and Shielding Audio Devices

taimoorali007 - it's possible that as Soultribunal mentioned you have dirty power coming in. A good UPS will typically correct for that, and dirty power can cause damage to electronics (depending how much it is fluctuating.) Power does vary normally however, and most moderns PSUs are actually pretty good at correcting any small peaks and dips. The (likely) symptom of no ground you are seeing of noise over the headphones is probably not anything extra to be concerned about, other than the lack of a ground in the first place.
What about Voltage Stablizer?

Last edited by Arinoth; August 9, 2012 at 09:47 AM.
  #22 (permalink)  
Old August 8, 2012, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taimoorali007 View Post
What about Voltage Stablizer?
Voltage stabalization (Buck/Boost) is done by a UPS (as I had mentioned).

I would, in all honesty get an electrician to ground your house, if its not done.

-ST
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old August 8, 2012, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taimoorali007 View Post
What about Voltage Stablizer?
Best voltage stabilization is already done inside electronics. That is what a power supply is for. Normal voltage: incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. And no voltages inside any appliance change. How often do your lights dim to 50% intensity?

Meanwhile, portable appliances are required to be even more robust - have even better voltage stabilization. Portable appliance must work just fine on any voltage from 85 volts to 265 volts. How often does your AC vary that much?

Grounding with a hand means a near zero voltage is causing noise. Noise does not cause any hardware failure. Noise is best eliminated by grounding all interconnected equipment to one common point - ie a power strip. That ground need no even be connected to the wall receptacle safety ground. Noise, as described also by NyteOwl, may be due to leakage currents or a grounding loop. Described in this paragraph is one way of eliminating that electrical current loop that is flowing through interconnected appliances.

One of the greatest sources of AC noise is a UPS. Since electronics are required to be so robust, then a UPS can be cheap and 'dirty'. So 'dirty' that a UPS may even harm motorized appliances and power strip protectors. A UPS has one function. To provide temporary and 'dirtiest' power during a blackout. UPS power can and often is extremely 'dirty' because electronic power supplies make that noise irrelevant.

1) Wall receptacle safety ground is for human safety (and will help eliminate noise due to leakage currents). 2) Earth ground is required for human safety and also does transistor safety. Those are for voltages that may be tens, hundreds, or thousands of volts. 3) A ground that is common only to interconnected appliances addresses the ground loop problem or other similar noise (leakage) problems. That ground is for voltages that are single digit or less. That create noise; not harm to hardware or humans.
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Old August 8, 2012, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soultribunal View Post
Voltage stabalization (Buck/Boost) is done by a UPS (as I had mentioned).

I would, in all honesty get an electrician to ground your house, if its not done.

-ST

Thnx, and ok Ups...hmm....What about this only good one available in my area:
APC Smart-UPS 1500VA USB & Serial 230V

Can minor leakage burns ting like PSU?

Last edited by Arinoth; August 9, 2012 at 09:49 AM.
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Old August 8, 2012, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taimoorali007 View Post
Can minor leakage burns ting like PSU?
Minor leakage is routine inside all appliances. For example, a gentle tingle might be felt on a refrigerator connected only to a two prong receptacle. That tingle is the leakage current using you as an electical conductor.

Those same microamps may cause noise. As noted previously,
Quote:
3) A ground that is common only to interconnected appliances addresses the ground loop problem or other similar noise (leakage) problems. ... That create[s] noise; not harm to hardware or humans.
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Old August 8, 2012, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by westom View Post
Minor leakage is routine inside all appliances. For example, a gentle tingle might be felt on a refrigerator connected only to a two prong receptacle. That tingle is the leakage current using you as an electical conductor.

Those same microamps may cause noise. As noted previously,
hmm, ahh! Relief a bit! I tried to notice but was minor leakage from socket, still tomorrow i'll call elec. Guy and repair sockets, grounding and oh yes, i'll check power strip....and i'll look for surge protector until i arrange for UPS. Thnx guyz, thnx everyone for ur precious time...i think m aint mad and these all can happen too! Just need guyz like u around me! Thnx again! I think this all will hopefully fix my problem! Thanks!
  #27 (permalink)  
Old August 8, 2012, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
Best voltage stabilization is already done inside electronics. That is what a power supply is for. Normal voltage: incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. And no voltages inside any appliance change. How often do your lights dim to 50% intensity?

Meanwhile, portable appliances are required to be even more robust - have even better voltage stabilization. Portable appliance must work just fine on any voltage from 85 volts to 265 volts. How often does your AC vary that much?

Grounding with a hand means a near zero voltage is causing noise. Noise does not cause any hardware failure. Noise is best eliminated by grounding all interconnected equipment to one common point - ie a power strip. That ground need no even be connected to the wall receptacle safety ground. Noise, as described also by NyteOwl, may be due to leakage currents or a grounding loop. Described in this paragraph is one way of eliminating that electrical current loop that is flowing through interconnected appliances.

One of the greatest sources of AC noise is a UPS. Since electronics are required to be so robust, then a UPS can be cheap and 'dirty'. So 'dirty' that a UPS may even harm motorized appliances and power strip protectors. A UPS has one function. To provide temporary and 'dirtiest' power during a blackout. UPS power can and often is extremely 'dirty' because electronic power supplies make that noise irrelevant.

1) Wall receptacle safety ground is for human safety (and will help eliminate noise due to leakage currents). 2) Earth ground is required for human safety and also does transistor safety. Those are for voltages that may be tens, hundreds, or thousands of volts. 3) A ground that is common only to interconnected appliances addresses the ground loop problem or other similar noise (leakage) problems. That ground is for voltages that are single digit or less. That create noise; not harm to hardware or humans.
UPS's have a LOT more functionality than just providing Power (dirty as you say) to units when Utility power goes offline. Most common Units have quality AVR Trim becuase there are (in telecom which is where I work) lots of sensitive devices that cannot afford high Input/output voltage fluctuations. There are actually banks of rectifers and other such devices (Alpha Tech out of Richmond being a major supplier in the Telcom) because the Voltage has to be so percise. Sure, some common household electronics and other devices have the ability to take a wide range of Voltages without fail but that doesn't mean everything does.
Most PSU's I believe range for 110/115 input to 230v so for the most part they are okay but in my older house there is a lot of noise on the lines espically when you use certain High AMP appliances (Shop Vac, Vacumn etc etc.) My UPS Records 113 events approx per month. Thats doing a lot more than just creating dirty power.


From the smaller portable units to the Rack mounted ones they have a lot more responsibility than what you give credit for. And unless you are using an old outdated unit, I have yet to see a UPS make something worse before it makes it better.

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt your understand of electronics and household electrical (house hold has never been my speciality, I get my Father to do that) but when it comes to power quality I do have my own experience to add.

I think the OP has a few things going against him in this whole setup at his house.

-ST
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Last edited by Soultribunal; August 8, 2012 at 09:01 PM.
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Old August 9, 2012, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soultribunal View Post
UPS's have a LOT more functionality than just providing Power (dirty as you say) to units when Utility power goes offline. Most common Units have quality AVR Trim becuase there are (in telecom which is where I work) lots of sensitive devices that cannot afford high Input/output voltage fluctuations. There are actually banks of rectifers and other such devices (Alpha Tech out of Richmond being a major supplier in the Telcom) because the Voltage has to be so percise. Sure, some common household electronics and other devices have the ability to take a wide range of Voltages without fail but that doesn't mean everything does.
Most PSU's I believe range for 110/115 input to 230v so for the most part they are okay but in my older house there is a lot of noise on the lines espically when you use certain High AMP appliances (Shop Vac, Vacumn etc etc.) My UPS Records 113 events approx per month. Thats doing a lot more than just creating dirty power.


From the smaller portable units to the Rack mounted ones they have a lot more responsibility than what you give credit for. And unless you are using an old outdated unit, I have yet to see a UPS make something worse before it makes it better.

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt your understand of electronics and household electrical (house hold has never been my speciality, I get my Father to do that) but when it comes to power quality I do have my own experience to add.

I think the OP has a few things going against him in this whole setup at his house.

-ST
it means ups plays an important role, ur point is that it just not provides backup but it protects and stablizes power, right!? But why some say that ups is itself dangerous as it provides faults in volts and hertz. When i say that why companies use ups for computer, they say that they dont have gaming rigs there! Is that true? Plz xplain.
  #29 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taimoorali007 View Post
it means ups plays an important role, ur point is that it just not provides backup but it protects and stablizes power, right!? But why some say that ups is itself dangerous as it provides faults in volts and hertz. When i say that why companies use ups for computer, they say that they dont have gaming rigs there! Is that true? Plz xplain.
If UPS's did more harm then good the whole backing up of Telecom and Server solutions here and at all hospitals, universities, and the likes would be moot. Those are systems that CANNOT fail. So it would make zero sense putting something in the line that would harm them. I would love to see some concrete proof that the input is cleaner than the output on most modern UPS units. I am sure that the Cheap $40 UPS guys wouldn't be ideal for your $1500 rig but thats just common sense. Since cheap designs are offline typically and don't have the same response as Online and Line interactive units.

Gaming computer doesn't mean a damn thing. Your gaming rig and my Server Both draw Power, that is put through a PSU that converts it to DC. Both can be sensitive to noise, spikes and fluctuations in the lines. There is nothing that seperates them other then what they are used for.

Anywho, all that aside I truely feel that you need to perhaps get an electrician to look into your house more than anything. Even UPS units and Powerline Conditioners have there limits on what they can do , and if the whole source (House) has issues, that that is where I would start.

-ST
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old August 9, 2012, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by taimoorali007 View Post
it means ups plays an important role, ur point is that it just not provides backup but it protects and stablizes power, right!? But why some say that ups is itself dangerous as it provides faults in volts and hertz.
He has confused something that costs $tens of thousands with something that costs $hundreds. Both are completely different devices that happen to share a common name.

Your 240 volt UPS may output 400 volt square waves and spikes well above 500 volts. Due to superior voltage regulation inside electronics, that 'dirty' power is converted to ideal power. Best AVR and other functions are already inside electronic power supplies.

Same 'dirty' UPS that is ideal power for any electronics can also be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. All electronics are so robust, electronics have superior AVR, and a UPS selling only for $hundreds is made as cheaply as possible. That UPS also does not do anything for the OP's original AC power concerns such as two wire circuits.

What does a UPS do? Connects your computer directly to AC mains. And slowly switches to battery power during a blackout.

What does that power look like? A utility shows what happens when cleanest power from AC mains (left side) is replaced by 'dirty' UPS power (right side of picture). Note the changed waveform when a UPS switched from AC (clean sine wave) to battery ('dirty' square waves):
Tech Tip 03 - Indiana Business-Duke Energy

If a UPS output is 'cleaner', then he has posted manufacturer spec numbers. He cannot. Even the manufacture does not claim 'cleaner' power. His claims are subjective - how urban myths are invented. He says he knows only because he knows - classic urban myth.

Another device that does 'clean' power (also called a UPS), says so with spec numbers such as %THD. He cannot post %THD numbers because 1) the UPS outputs 'dirtier' power, and 2) only hearsay (no numbers) claim 'cleaner' power. Claims made without spec numbers are often an urban myths or junk science reasoning. Meanwhile, an AC power utility shows what the typical UPS power looks like - 'dirty'.

It is temporary power. A power supply routinely converts 'dirty' UPS power into cleanest power. Because best AVR and power cleaning is already inside that supply. 'Cleaning' is the job of every supply. Meanwhile, the UPS does not solve any of the OP's original concerns. UPS is recommended to solve a problem that does not exist.

Last edited by westom; August 9, 2012 at 06:28 AM.
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