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  #11 (permalink)  
Old September 9, 2011, 06:01 PM
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I think their memory (OCZ) was at one time good even though it required large power..Junk now
I"ve got a couple older Gamestremes chugging along right now with no problems
It"s to bad E-tailers won"t advertise the weight of the psu...minus the extra"s and box...Heavier the Psu the better!!
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old September 9, 2011, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Soultribunal View Post
\TestTube - That Table is very old and not reliable. Corsair might get a higher Failure rate only because they sell on average 3-4x as many units as the others. Its all volume.

-ST
Seller volume should not have a lot to do with return rates when they are listed as a percentage of units sold. If you sell 100 units and 2 fail or if you sell 1000 units and 20 fail, it's still 2%.

As far as the age of the table,
"The returns rates given concern the products sold between October 1st 2009 and April 1st 2010 for returns made before October 2010, namely after between 6 months and a year of use. The statistics by manufacturer are based on a minimum sample of 500 sales, those by model on a minimum sample of 100 sales."

Up to a year ago isn't really that old...
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Old September 9, 2011, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by test tube View Post
Seller volume should not have a lot to do with return rates when they are listed as a percentage of units sold. If you sell 100 units and 2 fail or if you sell 1000 units and 20 fail, it's still 2%.

As far as the age of the table,
"The returns rates given concern the products sold between October 1st 2009 and April 1st 2010 for returns made before October 2010, namely after between 6 months and a year of use. The statistics by manufacturer are based on a minimum sample of 500 sales, those by model on a minimum sample of 100 sales."

Up to a year ago isn't really that old...
Perhaps, but that doesn't tell the whole story. And again much like PSU calculators I don't take tables like that with much seriousness. I probably should have been more clear as to my meaning.
Units die, all of them will.
The biggest issue is not being able to run to capacity and killing your hardware inside when they die.
I have luckily never had a corsair either die, or take something out. I have had 2 ultras buy the farm but again not lose a component. I have had 12 OCZ failures and 4 of those damaged the systems they were in.
So Regardless of the Table, I take personal experience in as well. And I am not alone. There are many OEM's I know and friends too whom feel the same and have experienced the same.


ST
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Old September 9, 2011, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Soultribunal View Post
Perhaps, but that doesn't tell the whole story. And again much like PSU calculators I don't take tables like that with much seriousness. I probably should have been more clear as to my meaning.
Units die, all of them will.
The biggest issue is not being able to run to capacity and killing your hardware inside when they die.
I have luckily never had a corsair either die, or take something out. I have had 2 ultras buy the farm but again not lose a component. I have had 12 OCZ failures and 4 of those damaged the systems they were in.
So Regardless of the Table, I take personal experience in as well. And I am not alone. There are many OEM's I know and friends too whom feel the same and have experienced the same.


ST
Agreed. I take into account people's personal experiences more than numbers. There are things you just know from a community consensus to be true. It seems almost everyone has had great success with Corsair on this forum. My personal experience with them is stellar. I had a water leak from an acrylic block into my HX1000. Not only did the PSU shutdown my computer safely without damaging anything, it still worked the next day. It did however die a few weeks after, but that was entirely my fault.
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Old September 9, 2011, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by test tube View Post
Failure rates of Corsair PSUs, especially some models, are a lot higher than most people think as well: Components returns rates (page 3: Power supplies) - BeHardware

The bottom line with power supplies is don't hate a brand, hate a model.
In the case of PSU's, hating a "model" is often the same as hating a "brand." The way a company does business reflects into the quality of their products. OCZ is a prime example and that's why there is so much dislike for them here. They're a company that's too concerned over their performance numbers and try to innovate too aggressively. They bring out new technologies faster than the competition, but get burned when they realized most of these technologies aren't mature yet. (25nm vs 32nm scandal was a prime example)

Also, this study is a poor way to indicate PSU quality. Way too many problems with that study, not that I disagree that Antec units are among the most reliable.

1. The study is extremely misleading, the statistics given are from a single French distributor. (albeit a large one, but only in France )

2. These are return rates, NOT failure rates. No indications whatsoever for the reason of return. It could be anything unrelated to a failure or a DOA.

3. These statistics only include returns made within the distributor's warranty period and RMA's outsourced to the distributor which don't include direct RMA's with the manufacturers.

4. Compare your study which lists Seasonic as the biggest offender to this more current version of the same study: Components returns rates (page 3: Power supplies) - BeHardware

Seasonic rockets up the charts while they barely released any new models in the time period between the studies. Why is this? Probably because of the X series and the fact that they are semi passive. I have heard of countless stories of clueless customers returning X series power supplies because the fan didn't spin or the unit came without a fan. This is despite the countless labels and warnings that indicate this is normal. Time goes on and most of these customers learn that it's normal and Seasonic continues producing the same high quality products.

5. Referring back to the linked version of the study, the Coolermaster Elite Power 400W scores a return rate of 0.2%, placing it among the highest of all PSUs in the study. That particular unit is more accurately considered a 300W unit. (only rated for 276W on the 12v rail) And yet the FSP Saga 400W that's an actual 400W of the same platform has a 0.9% return rate. So did CM lower failure rates by selling their unit as a higher end model? Nope, if you look at the pricing the CM equivalent is often cheaper than the original FSP. So chances are they're being used in low power office PC builds that barely ever get loaded past 150W. In that case they wouldn't be likely to fail, but no way is that an indication of quality.

The reasons go on, but I'm honestly not going to get into them. Bottom line is professional PSU reviews are a much better indicator of quality than return rates.
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Old September 10, 2011, 02:44 AM
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This has been very interesting to read, thank you all for your comments.
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Old September 10, 2011, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
In the case of PSU's, hating a "model" is often the same as hating a "brand." The way a company does business reflects into the quality of their products. OCZ is a prime example and that's why there is so much dislike for them here. They're a company that's too concerned over their performance numbers and try to innovate too aggressively. They bring out new technologies faster than the competition, but get burned when they realized most of these technologies aren't mature yet. (25nm vs 32nm scandal was a prime example)
It depends on the model, since OCZ themselves doesn't make the PSUs... Z-series are Sirtec (like the PC&P Silencer Mk. II) and great PSUs, StealthXStream II is FSP, Fatal1ty is Sirtec.

Corsair builder series is CWT, a bunch of the TXs are CWT, some of the Corsair PSUs are also Seasonic... a branding like Corsair or OCZ is not an OEM, they are the resellers.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...er,2913-4.html
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Old September 10, 2011, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by test tube View Post
It depends on the model, since OCZ themselves doesn't make the PSUs... Z-series are Sirtec (like the PC&P Silencer Mk. II) and great PSUs, StealthXStream II is FSP, Fatal1ty is Sirtec.

Corsair builder series is CWT, a bunch of the TXs are CWT, some of the Corsair PSUs are also Seasonic... a branding like Corsair or OCZ is not an OEM, they are the resellers.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...er,2913-4.html
Yes but Corsair has their own Engineering side that tweaks and adjust designs to their whim. All companies do in fact. Take the seasonic Platform that Artic Cooling butchered. They turned what was a great platfrom into a crap one, just like that..
So although OEMs may stay the same for some there are always differences.

Sirtec and FSP don't have the best track records either, not by a long shot.

There is a reason why CWT / Seasonic / Delta (espically Delta, look at Dell and HP) are the sought after OEMs, and now that Superflower is getting its head in the game, they are leading even the vaunted Seasonic.

OCZ has a lot to learn in the market if they want to win support. There dissolution of PC&P also caused huge ripples with the Enthusiast market too..

Thank you Ilya by the way for getting more detailed than I had time to in this discussion on those surveys.

-ST
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Old September 10, 2011, 07:14 PM
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Honestly, I think for most enthusiasts its not actually a matter of "dislike"; rather it is simply the fact that most of us are ultra conservative in our approach to components. If you have 3 or 4 models of a given product you trust or consider to be "known good parts" the chances of you "taking a risk" on a unknown are very unlikely. This sometimes translates into a bit of fanboism with comments that dont properly convey this attitude (e.g. "XYZ sucks") when in fact what most of us mean is "I have other products I know to be good...why risk it on an unknown...and why should YOU risk it?".

Perfect example of this is by simply compare and contrasting how say Corsair and OCZ usually go about "breaking into" a new market.

Corsair taps one of the most trusted names for their first foray into it. Such as Seasonic or Asetek. They rarely are in the bottom half of a given niches price range. They rarely do MIRs on them. More importantly IF the first foray does not pay off they switch things up and change OEM (take the later CoolIT based Hydro coolers as a great example). Basically, Corsair takes an ultra conservative approach that plays to the enthusiast communities strengths, beliefs and biases. IF they do break into the market then and only then to do they "risk it" by changing things up and offering lower models. BUT still keep the high end kit the same.

Compare this to OCZ who take larger risks and prefer to break into a market via lower price. Sometimes it works out. Sometimes it does not.

Take their SSDs. They basically found Indilinx and made it THE controller to own (and yes I am ignoring their first JM ones...as JM was basically one of the only games in town that early on). They also usually come in with VERY competitive prices and rely heavily on MIRs to make their new kit even more tempting. Sadly, all this does NOT play to the enthusiasts biases and beliefs ("We" for the most part do NOT take MIRs into account with price. In fact, many consider this to be a sign of weakness in a product and a "good" reason to stay away from it until it is PROVEN to be good kit)... Thus more friction and they have to PROVE its good kit before a large portion of the enthusiast niche will buy.

Each business model has its strengths and its weaknesses. Neither is perfect or even optimal. It really is just a case of what "we" like to see vs what "works" for a given company. Hell, the enthusiast community is only one slice of the pie and what another slice prefers could be the exact opposite. ;)

Just my 2 cents....YMMV. :)
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Old September 10, 2011, 07:20 PM
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Sending my friend 650W OCZ PSU for the fifth time in 3 years next week. Bought a seasonic OEM to replace it since he is getting pissed a lot. Thermaltake PSU ( TR2 ) are also epic junk.
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