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  #11 (permalink)  
Old April 24, 2010, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ZZLEE View Post
When smell the oil on an old transformer you know whats up. Smoke anouther good sign that the transformaer is in trouble.
And something call PCBs should also be discussed.


A 33,000 volt wire fell upon the local distribution. As a result, electric meters exploded from their pans. Now that is not a blackout. That is a surge. Meters were found 10 meters (30 feet) from those pans. At least 100. Many suffered destroyed power strip protectors and damaged appliances. At least one had a completely failed circuit breaker in the breaker box.

But my friend knows someone with electrical knowledge. He only had one 'whole house' protector. Nothing else damaged (except his electric meter). Even the 'whole house' protector was not damaged.

This is about one type of electrical anomaly - surge. In this case 33,000 volts causes a surge on local distribution. The solution to that problem must be at the service entrance with the always required short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth ground.

Blackouts are a completely different anomaly solved by something completely different. Blackouts do not cause hardware damage. What can happen when the transformer fails that way? The local 2,000 or 13,000 volt distribution wire can be shorted to the 120/240 volts. Another reason why we earth a 'whole house' protector. Another anomaly that a UPS will not avert.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old April 24, 2010, 08:47 PM
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Thanks for straightening up my knowledge on this issue westom, appreciate it.

I was just told from a friend that a surge protector (and he sent this link) is needed, I said why and he said because of power surges and power outages.

I just purchased a $1200 computer and its on its way, and he said to never plug it right into a wall or extension cord, so I was just looking for some solutions.

I'm not worried about my work being lost in a power outage at all, just want to protect from HARDWARE damage, which you said can only happen when a surge arises, so my guess is I need a surge protector? Do you have any good suggestions?

Thanks
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Old April 24, 2010, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by irtehleet View Post
I was just told from a friend that a surge protector (and he sent this link) is needed, I said why and he said because of power surges and power outages.

He simply recited myths promoted by retail propaganda. Most of us are educated only by that source.

The concepts are simple. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. A protector without that dedicated connection to earth is promoted by hearsay. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Responsible companies that provide 'whole house' protectors include Siemens, General Electric, Leviton, Intermatic, and Square D. A Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Not listed are Belkin, Tripplite, APC, and Monster Cable. But those are what an overwhelming majority will recommend when advertising is knowledge.

Plug that computer directly into the wall. Earth a ‘whole house’ protector. Then protection is what has been used for over 100 years in facilities that can never have damage – ie telco switching centers, FAA communication centers, munitions dumps, etc. And not what popular myths promote.
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Old April 24, 2010, 10:00 PM
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Buy a surge protector or UPS and call it a day...

Reading the above posts saying it"s all myths and such was a good read but at the end of the day I, like many, feel safe that my PC is plugged in a surge protector or UPS.
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Old April 24, 2010, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by crazyhorsejohnny View Post
... but at the end of the day I, like many, feel safe that my PC is plugged in a surge protector or UPS.
Feeling does not change the schematics. Unplug from the protector. Plug into same wall receptacle that the power strip or UPS connects to. Protector circuit is unchanged. So where is the protection? Most who recommend plug-in protectors do not even know this simple fact.


When connected to a power strip protector or UPS (not in battery backup mode), the computer is connected directly to AC mains - nothing in between. However if consumers learned this, then obscene profit margins would be at risk. Better is for advertising to not educate consumers.
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Old April 24, 2010, 11:13 PM
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Wow this has turned into a big read... gonna just buy the surge protector in the first post I guess since we have a myth buster ITT XD
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old April 25, 2010, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by westom View Post
You need to first learn some facts. Do you want to protect data from a blackout? Or do you want to protect hardware from a surge? They are completely different and unrelated events.

So again, what do you want to solve? If you want to protect data, then the UPS numeric specs only claim to do that. Meanwhile all electronic appliances contain significant surge protection. So that internal appliance protection is not overwhelmed, you must have the solution that was even done 100 years ago where ever damage could not happen. You must upgrade earthing and install one 'whole house' protector. You must install the only type of protector that actually does surge protection.
The problem is these are not easily available and the only one I found on the Home Depot website is $185. I guess that is not a high price to pay to protect your stuff but for the average customer, that's a lot of money to pay for a box. None of these guarantee full protection. If you lose your electronics, do these manufacturers put a dollar value on your stuff and pay you money? I don't think so.

The second problem after availability and high cost is indeed the reliability. UPS protection is purchased because it is usually reliable - while it's working. The battery will eventually fail and then you need to replace it. But, I haven't read of any reports of widespread failures of UPS units. People are generally satisfied with them most of the time. It depends on the unit but generally, they seem to do the job. The problem is which one to choose and these also have high prices. However, they have better availability. You can go in any big box computer store or the better computer stores and buy one of these. Either the surges aren't delivering enough to 'get through' the UPS units or they don't happen often enough to cause considerable concern related to the protectors.

I can say, for a fact, that merely plugging the computer into the wall is the surest way to risk damage. In the past, I've seen other people's computers victimized by a surge or some kind of brownout or related problem. This has happened after a thunderstorm and you find your computer turned off and dead. I guess that would be my main concern, something like that happening. A UPS, I believe, can deal with that in most cases.
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Old April 25, 2010, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by technix View Post
The problem is these are not easily available and the only one I found on the Home Depot website is $185. I guess that is not a high price to pay to protect your stuff but for the average customer, that's a lot of money to pay for a box. None of these guarantee full protection. If you lose your electronics, do these manufacturers put a dollar value on your stuff and pay you money? I don't think so.

You actually believe that warranty is honored? A well proven lesson from free markets. Biggest warranty typically means the worst product. Which car has the biggest warranties? GM. That proves Honda has inferior quality? Apparently you ignored their fine print. A warranty chock full of exemptions to not be honored. They are selling a scam – not surge protection. Warranty says nothing about protection.

Any facility that cannot suffer damage avoids ineffective protectors. ‘Whole house’ protector earthed – as was done even 100 years ago where people learned science – is how effective protection costs tens or 100 times less money. How many surges does your telco CO suffer with every thunderstorm? Connected to overhead wires all over town – over 100+ surges – and no damage. How often has phone service been terminated for four days while they replace their computer? Never. Why? Professionals never waste money on the scam you have recommended. Professionals use ‘whole house’ protectors and earthing. This also essential – each protector is up to 50 meters distant from electronics. We have always known separation between protector and electronics increases protection. Understood even 100 years ago. And not known where information comes from retail shelves.

Why do big box TV stores sell ineffective protectors? Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. Sell it for $25 or $150. A salesman may spend more time selling the protector – because profits are larger.

A protector will stop what three kilometers of sky could not? You said that. So how does that 2 cm part stop what three kilometers of sky could not? Even 100 years ago, nobody tried to do that. But that is what UPS and power strip protectors are sold to do.

When are you going to post those manufacturer spec numbers that actually claims protection? You did not even do that. That was challenge #1. You did not post numbers because – and there is no nice way to say this – because your post is based only in sales propaganda and demonstrates virtually no electrical knowledge. Your every claims is speculation and myth. You post has no technical numbers because that is how junk science is promoted. In short, an insult to others who actually learned this stuff before posting. When do you post something with numbers and technical facts for why? Observation without even basic electrical knowledge is classic junk science reasoning – or how to insult others who worked hard to first learn before posting.

Trivial labor can find ‘whole house’ protectors for less than $185:
http://www.dealtime.com/xPO-Hammer-Cutler-Hammer-CHSPMICRO-Basic-Surge-Protector-for-Appliances
Please do the work. Please learn before posting. Informed consumers earth one ‘whole house’ protector – a technology proven even 100 years ago – for about $1 per protected appliance.

You never saw a UPS fail? Obvious from the circuit. A protector circuit in a UPS or power strip can completely fail – and power is still provided to the appliance. Did you really think a failed protector circuit would stop providing power? View how protector (both UPS and power strip) circuits are constructed. They remove all protector components – and its light even said the protector remains good. View the pictures:
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

Please, if replying, do so in a responsible manner. The challenge was blunt: show me those manufacturer spec numbers that claim protection. You did not even read the fine print in that warranty. Please get a fundamental grasp of what protectors do – as they did even 100 years ago. This simple – and not found anywhere in your post.

*Protection is always about where energy dissipates.* If energy is permitted inside a building, then a surge hunts for earth destructively via appliances. With or without plug-in protectors. How does hundreds of joules in a protector make hundreds of thousands of joules in a surge just disappear – as the sales scam claims? It doesn’t. Either energy is harmlessly dissipated outside the building – as it was 100 years ago. Or plug-in protectors may even help that surge find destructive paths via appliances.

All appliances already contain significant protection. Your concern is the rare anomaly – typically once every seven years – that can overwhelm internal appliance protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. An effective protector means nobody knew a surge existed. Direct lightning strikes to incoming AC electric wires means the effective protector is unharmed – and nobody knew that surge existed.

What appliance most needs protection during a surge? Furnace? Bathroom GFICs? Smoke detector – the most critical appliance during a surge – is another reason why informed homeowners earth one ‘whole house’ protector. Cost: about $1 per protected appliance. How does the UPS protect those items? It does not even claim that protection in numeric specs. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Last edited by westom; April 25, 2010 at 02:40 PM.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old April 25, 2010, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by westom View Post
You actually believe that warranty is honored? A well proven lesson from free markets. Biggest warranty typically means the worst product. Which car has the biggest warranties? GM. That proves Honda has inferior quality? Apparently you ignored their fine print. A warranty chock full of exemptions to not be honored. They are selling a scam – not surge protection. Warranty says nothing about protection.
Geez and I thought XFX made good video cards....
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old April 25, 2010, 04:36 PM
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how did the thread get here...i dont know

stick with good brand names like belkin in the 20-30 dollar range and youll be ok, mostly. nothing is guaranteed 100%
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