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Old January 24, 2013, 11:50 AM
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Default Computer Myths and Overkill

Whilst I have been a little black and white in this for brevity , I desperately welcome comments especially corrections as, yet again, I may be talking out of the wrong end .
I've been asked to build a budget gamer/General purpose for an unemployed neighbor. Basic MSI h61 m/Board 30 Intel G630 42 2x2GB 1333MHz 18 500GB Hd sata3 barracuda 40 DVD R/W 13 and a Gtx 650Ti 105 . Cheap finger cutting case 12 450w Be quiet system power range 39. Total 299.
Myths - 7 of them anyway
1. Z77 is faster than H61. No it is not, and Intel will tell you this. Same CPU on a cheap board will run at the same speed as a 340 board. Z77 has many extra features for enthusiasts and I am one but not much use for anyone with a sub 150 processor.

2. You must have sata3 Why? after all no conventional hard drive can supply sata 2 speed let alone sata 3s speed . SSD can benefit- on a graph- but in real life only folk modded to perceive micro seconds will notice.

3. USB3 a must have. Fair enough, that one terabyte USB stick you snapped up at CES for 3000 u.s. dollars will transfer the size of file you daily use better via usb3, but for most the small files transferred by usb won't see a difference.

4. Best Video Card possible. No, it's best card your display can handle. Up to 19 inch 1400x900 is about the best, the majority are 1366x800. Quite a lot of 1280x1024 still out there. Its harder to find low resolution benchmarking but it seems to show a 240 card won't display much better than a 120 card, again if you are capable of visually measuring exact FPS you might detect the difference but it won't look better - no WOW! factor at these resolutions.

5. CPU Bottleneck. Nope. Unless the game can use 4 cores Any current Intel 2core inc Celerons will not bottle neck a sub 200 graphic card, maybe even 300.

6. The best is future proof. Obvious nonsense. When the above rig gets an upgrade in 2 or 3 years time board and cpu will retain 50% plus of the original purchase price . Even if sooner on Ebay or forums its 60% plus. Try that with a 150 motherboard. By the time the future is here your board ,your cpu, your PCIE3 graphics will all be redundant every time.

7. Cheap boards don't last. well cheap boards don't get stressed, and as only the incurably stupid use cheap power supplies, you shouldn't need the 3 year g/tee it came with. Chances are it will still be going when socket 1155 is no longer available!

I think it is a wonderful thing to be able to post a proposed rig and get help from other forum members. Though I am not always happy with advice I often see given to people for the above reasons. Real life and real games are not the same as bench testing and as soon as I see "you must have" my hackles rise.

If I buy a board with usb3 and sata3 I waste 9 of video card money. What do I gain? ( also when do you read a post advising H61 chipset)
If I buy a sata 2 SSD I can get nearly double the capacity compared to sata3 although it will be a slow one (240GB@ 88) Again , I should notice?
I replaced a mates 80GB H/D with a 90GB Kingston SSD. Three months later he is still telling people I am a genius and inviting them to see how fast his 5 yr old e5300 is. OK he is not a techie or a good judge of I.Q. , but we both got the WOW factor. Should I have said " well you need a new motherboard Z 77 is the best at the moment then you can use the latest Ivybridge processor etc". Knowing what a computer is to be used for and monitor size is as important as knowing whats available. As per the sticky on this forum.

My first post after visiting the site for a few years, I've learned a lot .Thanks to all. It's a good place.
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Old January 24, 2013, 11:59 AM
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My only honest point of contention, and one that I can touch base with because of numbered experience is the boards.
You are correct to say for the processor neither will be faster with the same proc.
However what does matter greatly and where the 'enthusiast boards' shine is build quality.
Those cheap boards many times are cheap because they have to keep within a budget and sacrifice on quality.
Be it substandard CAPS, Chokes, MOSFET's , or even lack of any type of reasonable cooling. Which, when stuffed into a budget case with budget fans is an eventual recipie for disaster.

You, most times from respectable manufactureres in boards, get what you pay for.

I don't care that for my board I won't max out or saturate my USB or SATA for sometime to come. What matters to me is my board in itself will outlive the usefullness of all items I attach to it.

-ST
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Old January 24, 2013, 12:13 PM
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Granted, most of the stuff we recommend is for enthusiast oriented rigs. Somebody who is going to have a computer built and then not mod it anymore will not benefit from higher end equipment such as an overclockable high end motherboard. However, for those of us that are enthusiasts (i.e. most of the people who post on this website) we can make use of these upgraded parts for one reason or another, be it folding, benchmarking, 3D editing, or just plain bragging rights. Plus, some of us just like to have nice things. A lot of people on here create works of arts when it comes to their rigs, and they take a lot of pride in the parts they choose and the way the whole thing looks. Computers for us are a hobby, so yeah, we're going to like to have the best parts that we can afford.

Does the fact that we're enthusiasts forgive the fact that often we recommend high end parts to people that only need low end 'will make do' parts? No, it doesn't. However, it's often human nature to recommend what you covet/own, because that is what your mind desires, so obviously other people desire it, too.
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Old January 24, 2013, 12:19 PM
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While I do generally advise people with the budget to get a 3570 and z77 (as it'll simply last them sooo bloody long and hold very good second hand value compared to other solutions.)
I don't see the point of the post above.

Mostly people say what they need to do and their budget and mostly people will say you should go for xyz
As always though each person will prioritize what they want most, generally forum members will give an option or 2 for said budget and usage stating the pro's and con's of each.

on point 5 your off base.. there are gains in having more cores in games. Even the x3 phenom shows increased performance over a dual core(no HT).
Then it also depends on the game they want to play, some games are incredibly processor intensive.

On USB 3 and Sata 3, well the benefit of these are noticeable and eventually the user may eventually want an SSD, all stuff that they should be saying when they ask for advice.

On point 6, a dual core will be defunct in 2 -3 years yes, definitely.. an i5 or i7 will not.
3.5 years on my i7 950 and no intention of changing it for another 2-3. There is just no reason as it's that good.

Obviously every piece of tech will become outdated eventually, but if a user has a budget of 1000, we advise what will suit their needs best and last as long as possible.
If we advised the minimum they needed then in a years time they will be struggling with the new latest and greatest and be cursing us up and down.
Also if you go for (even a low end) z77 chipset there is a drop-in upgrade available in a couple of years.



To sum it up, I agree with not over spec'ing what people need but I think your under-estimating how long the higher end stuff lasts these days and people tend to advise to the situation...
if someone asks for a 300 build thats generally what they will get.
They may get options or advised to spend a little more here or there so that they get the best performance per but they generally stick to budget.
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Old January 24, 2013, 12:20 PM
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On the case side good point, I would definitely add at least one fan thank you. I've read that about 60% of a computers heat is extracted by the power supply.thats from when cases had top mounted PSUs. On motherboards I believe there is no longer much rubbish out there ,the days of "PC-Chips" and the like are long gone.
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Old January 24, 2013, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrihim View Post
On the case side good point, I would definitely add at least one fan thank you. I've read that about 60% of a computers heat is extracted by the power supply.thats from when cases had top mounted PSUs. On motherboards I believe there is no longer much rubbish out there ,the days of "PC-Chips" and the like are long gone.
Yeah which is one good way to shorten the life of a PSU's Caps (having the PSU extract the heat).
That is why more and more PSU's are becomming Bottom mounted in order to facilitate longevity. Though this means you need to pay more attention to Case airflow when opting for a case like that.

For boards there are lots of 'rubbish' designs on the market espically with the surge in cheap chinese caps and components + knock offs of them.
The Cheaper the board, the less likely it will live into the long term. Coupled inside of a case that gives the MOSFETs (which on cheap boards have no HS) little air movement and you have dead board faster than most.

-ST
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Old January 24, 2013, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzzope View Post
While I do generally advise people with the budget to get a 3570 and z77 (as it'll simply last them sooo bloody long and hold very good second hand value compared to other solutions.)
I don't see the point of the post above.

Mostly people say what they need to do and their budget and mostly people will say you should go for xyz
As always though each person will prioritize what they want most, generally forum members will give an option or 2 for said budget and usage stating the pro's and con's of each.

on point 5 your off base.. there are gains in having more cores in games. Even the x3 phenom shows increased performance over a dual core(no HT).
Then it also depends on the game they want to play, some games are incredibly processor intensive.

On USB 3 and Sata 3, well the benefit of these are noticeable and eventually the user may eventually want an SSD, all stuff that they should be saying when they ask for advice.

On point 6, a dual core will be defunct in 2 -3 years yes, definitely.. an i5 or i7 will not.
3.5 years on my i7 950 and no intention of changing it for another 2-3. There is just no reason as it's that good.

Obviously every piece of tech will become outdated eventually, but if a user has a budget of 1000, we advise what will suit their needs best and last as long as possible.
If we advised the minimum they needed then in a years time they will be struggling with the new latest and greatest and be cursing us up and down.
Also if you go for (even a low end) z77 chipset there is a drop-in upgrade available in a couple of years.



To sum it up, I agree with not over spec'ing what people need but I think your under-estimating how long the higher end stuff lasts these days and people tend to advise to the situation...
if someone asks for a 300 build thats generally what they will get.
They may get options or advised to spend a little more here or there so that they get the best performance per but they generally stick to budget.
On point 5 I feel toms hardware have it right when they recommend a Pentium G860 over the AMD 3 core for gaming. I agree 4 cores is best and above all I agree it depends on the game.
On usb and sata I can only defer to your vision and sense of time.
Yes dual core may be obsolete in 2 or 3 years so I've lost 40 but I can enter the world of the latest wonder socket. Be fair -when you bought your i7 it alone it was about twice the cost of the above entire rig.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soultribunal View Post
Yeah which is one good way to shorten the life of a PSU's Caps (having the PSU extract the heat).
That is why more and more PSU's are becomming Bottom mounted in order to facilitate longevity. Though this means you need to pay more attention to Case airflow when opting for a case like that.

For boards there are lots of 'rubbish' designs on the market espically with the surge in cheap chinese caps and components + knock offs of them.
The Cheaper the board, the less likely it will live into the long term. Coupled inside of a case that gives the MOSFETs (which on cheap boards have no HS) little air movement and you have dead board faster than most.

-ST
No one could argue against more expensive boards tend to have better layout and quality components . At the same time msi gigabyte and asus offer 3 yr warranties on many budget boards. I have supplied Low end H61 boards from all three brands( What ever is on special) Two of the rigs 24 mths ago. I don't think I am building trouble for myself. Do you think skt 1155 will be around in 3years time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by great_big_abyss View Post
Granted, most of the stuff we recommend is for enthusiast oriented rigs. Somebody who is going to have a computer built and then not mod it anymore will not benefit from higher end equipment such as an overclockable high end motherboard. However, for those of us that are enthusiasts (i.e. most of the people who post on this website) we can make use of these upgraded parts for one reason or another, be it folding, benchmarking, 3D editing, or just plain bragging rights. Plus, some of us just like to have nice things. A lot of people on here create works of arts when it comes to their rigs, and they take a lot of pride in the parts they choose and the way the whole thing looks. Computers for us are a hobby, so yeah, we're going to like to have the best parts that we can afford.

Does the fact that we're enthusiasts forgive the fact that often we recommend high end parts to people that only need low end 'will make do' parts? No, it doesn't. However, it's often human nature to recommend what you covet/own, because that is what your mind desires, so obviously other people desire it, too.
Thank you hits the nail on the head and p.s. when you get bored by your rig and you know you will , Can I have it.

Last edited by Soultribunal; January 24, 2013 at 01:05 PM.
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Old January 24, 2013, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrihim View Post
No one could argue against more expensive boards tend to have better layout and quality components . At the same time msi gigabyte and asus offer 3 yr warranties on many budget boards. I have supplied Low end H61 boards from all three brands( What ever is on special) Two of the rigs 24 mths ago. I don't think I am building trouble for myself. Do you think skt 1155 will be around in 3years time?
It doesn't matter when the socket will be around. 1366 is obsolete yet 3 years later my board is rock solid.
Or, my fathers X38 Intel board. 775 is very obsolete but that is still working perfect.

And warranties are a two fold sword. Nice to have but when you are out 2-3 weeks on a board (not including troubleshooting with said vendor) if its just the same I'd rather not have to use it at all.
My demograph right now goes well beyond the proverbial 'few' as I have done it for two companies spanning 7 years. Historically speaking putting in the higher end boards has lessened dead boards quite a bit. Of those dead, 70% from 4 vendors were Power Delivery Failures.
And its telling too when the RMA'd boards come back Re-capped with Quality Caps.

Its all component selection , and where the vendor skimped.

-ST

PS - Try and keep your responses to a single instance if possible, or at least after someone else has posted. It makes the thread a mess otherwise.
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Old January 24, 2013, 01:10 PM
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Overall I agree, but some of what you have said does need to be taken with a grain of salt. Of course most of us don't NEED the computers we have, but we want them. While I follow computer technology and enjoy it, I know I don't need high end parts (though I would love to have them). I shop bang for buck and don't upgrade often. My x3 710, entry level motherboard and gtx 460 (that I bought a year later) have been going strong for over 3 years, and while I have been tempted to upgrade a few times I still don't feel I have to.

I agree that sometimes the suggestions given are not always what I would do, but people are entitled to different opinions. In your case you built a rig that I think is very good for its purpose. However, if you knew that person would have more disposable income in a few months that they wouldn't mind spending on an upgrade you could have considered doing it differently (like not getting a graphics card initially and investing in a more feature rich motherboard, a faster processor or a nicer case). And while I agree none of of those more expensive components are required, they can be useful or just nice to look at. A Z77 motherboard is not required if you don't plan on OCing or getting a K series CPU, but again if there is a chance you may want to venture in OCing, then its nice to have that ability without upgrading the motherboard. I run 4gb ram in my computers and it is enough, but given the price difference from 4 to 8gb ram is now only $15 CDN or so I have a hard time telling anyone to get 4gb. Does it make your computer futureproof, NO, but it very well could help it out in the long run.

In many ways your argument can be pictured as a car. Your implying everyone should drive a yaris or a civic, and that its a waste to get corvette, or a BMW. It may be a waste to some people, but it may be worth every penny to others.

Like I said earlier, I don't disagree with your comments, but they really need to be put in context.
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Old January 24, 2013, 01:16 PM
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True enough Bond. A lot of times its get what is required and little more. I don't knock the budget build one bit.
Budget builds are what I do best as of late, Its a matter of balance at most for many things. And we all have our opinions on what makes it better or worse than the next.

-ST
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