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  #101 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by miggs78 View Post
I would totally have to agree with Lithotec's mega post, Quad cores is seriously a waste of cash, If I were you, I would settle in for an E8400 or E8600. You only want a Quad if your on heavy media encoding, then you can fully utilize the 2 extra cores.
Whoops! I didn't mean to say all quads were a waste! Nono! Some games these days actually do benefit from quads now, same with 3d benchmarks.

There is no question that as a web designer, Brian will benefit from a Quad. Having only a dual core will just mean he'll need to upgrade it later. He'll probably be doing some limited encoding, a lot of Adobe stuff, and always be multitasking. A fast dual core will still be fast, but it ain't a quad.

The only reason I don't have a quad myself, is my 680i mobo won't overclock the 9xxx series chips, and I don't want to waste money on a Q6600 that I could move into my DFI P35 board later because it really needs a 9xxx chip. So, I am holding out for better prices on the 9xxx quads, or have enough money to buy one at current prices.
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Lithotech View Post
Whoops! I didn't mean to say all quads were a waste! Nono! Some games these days actually do benefit from quads now, same with 3d benchmarks.

There is no question that as a web designer, Brian will benefit from a Quad. Having only a dual core will just mean he'll need to upgrade it later. He'll probably be doing some limited encoding, a lot of Adobe stuff, and always be multitasking. A fast dual core will still be fast, but it ain't a quad.

The only reason I don't have a quad myself, is my 680i mobo won't overclock the 9xxx series chips, and I don't want to waste money on a Q6600 that I could move into my DFI P35 board later because it really needs a 9xxx chip. So, I am holding out for better prices on the 9xxx quads, or have enough money to buy one at current prices.


Multitasking was the one big concern I had. It's good to hear that I will benefit from a quad for that.
Although I will be using the computer for web work and graphic design.....it'll still mostly get used for gaming. Now with that said, the numbers itch me, the E8600 with 3.3GHz with OC potential higher than the quad is a tempting bit compared to a 2.8GHz Q9550. That's the gamer part of me talking. My only concern is if I get a dual instead of a quad, although some games do tend to make use of the multi cores...there really isn't much in terms of quads being full utilized yet. I want to be able to run the new games this fall/winter season (Far Cry 2, Wolfenstein, Call of Duty: World at War, and Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway) at the highest graphic setting with a good frame rate. So I'm again debating which CPU would get better performance for gaming for not only now but also in the future.

But then again with all that said, I can always upgrade to a quad when the time is needed to have a quad to run games.
So in terms of the E8600 vs. the Q9550 for gaming...from reading things all over the place it seems that the E8600 would be a better choice, at least for now. But, I don't want to have to upgrade to a quad TOO soon afterwards if I end up getting a dual. It's hard to look at the dual and think of it as much as a quad....just because it's quad, it's bigger and (seems) badder.
I really don't know anymore.

Update: new Nvidia drivers are out and my friend (the same guy that thought GTX 280 cards had 2 cores haha) says they're doing more with the multithreading which he also said is what quads can take advantage of?

So now I'm stumped AGAIN. Dual or quad, dual or quad. I've tried to look up so much in terms of weather or not gaming is worth the quad cores, and most threads are saying that at the time it isn't and probably won't be for a while. Eventually when quads become more mainsteam than duals they will, but it seems a general consensus that duals are getting better performance than quads for gaming. I've read a few times that Windows Vista hurts performance (frame rates) a little bit too.

Aye yi yi! Decisions are so hard to make in the computer field lol.
What have I gotten myself into!?
I do respect and appreciate all the time being spent helping me out with having me make well informed and educated choices.

Sorry to create so much mumbo jumbo in the discussion here, and to ask so many questions.

Last edited by Brian; September 25, 2008 at 11:35 AM.
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  #103 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by sswilson View Post
Somebody's been doing their homework.... :)

Personally, having worked with both the original Cosmos 1000 and my current Cosmos S I myself wouldn't be willing to sacrifice the poor backside cable management, and lack of a full push/pull stealth rad install that the S offers over the 1000, but that's going to be a personal choice as long as a person is well informed of the differences.

I envy you the ability to get touchy feely with high(er) end cases... too often we're stuck ordering something we never get a chance to physically check out.
It's sort of an ongoing thing.

Just that I sometimes have more time to devote to it than usual. HWC forums have become an awesome resource!

I've tried to read every Cosmos thread here, and I hate to but I fully concur with your reasoning on the S. The drive drawers are sort of flimsy, and only look cool. And no problem adding another drive bay in the S to get 5-6 HDs in nicely. The open front and side allow for much much better airflow, and I am still stunned at how easy a big rad went in the top.

I'm not jumping into a HAF just yet, lol. They are out of stock and not on sale at NCIX this week, thank gawd! It's been tough to resist. :help:

BTW, this store had the HAF for $190. I don't buy much from them, heheh. But I totally respect and admire them for the case display table. Back when I had a real job, I used to send people there because I could trust them to build a decent rig. The price premium is no biggy when compared to the systems people walk out of FS or London drugs with. The last premade system I bought was from them, a Socket A.

.
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian View Post
From what I can read, Lilo and Wilson you think that there are too many drawbacks on the Cosmos S to be worth the money it is correct? Also that you would choose the Cosmos 1000 over it?
Actually, I much prefer the Cosmos S over the Cosmos 1000, although a big part of that is as a water cooling / overclocking case.

My "build log" on the Cosmos S with some comparisons between it and the original Cosmos 1000 is here.... http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum...html#post48345
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  #105 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by sswilson View Post
Actually, I much prefer the Cosmos S over the Cosmos 1000, although a big part of that is as a water cooling / overclocking case.

My "build log" on the Cosmos S with some comparisons between it and the original Cosmos 1000 is here.... http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum...html#post48345
Very impressive! It seems the Cosmos S is doing wonders for you. You're really tempting me to get it over the HAF 932.

The cable routing gets one excited...seems so flawless.

I have a couple questions about it though.

From what I can see from the specs of the case stock it can hold:
(1) 120mm fan in the front (intake)
(3) 120mm fans on top (exhaust)
(1) 120mm fan at the rear (exhaust)
(1) 230mm fan on the side (intake)
I hope that's right.

You've modded it to where you have an extra 120mm in the drive bay (very good idea by the way) right?
The front 120mm, that bolts onto the hard drive cage at the bottom? (Judging from the picture on the Cooler Master website.)

Now here are the brutal rookie questions. If I go with the Cosmos S, can the fans easily be switched to LED fans (on the top and front)?
If so, I need to ask what fans to get, like what RPM fans and brand that are good quality, and if they'll run good enough to keep the system cool under load while gaming as they are without having a speed control on them.
I noticed the post in your log there about the side fans imploding and flying through the case, so would it be a good idea to get guards? Can you get guards to fit on a fan that size or do they have to be ordered? (See I don't know much)
Another thing about the guards, would it be a good idea to guard all the fans in the case? Even the 120mm without disrupting the airflow.

I'll be using only air cooling, I hope it's enough with just air cooling.

I'm sure whichever case I get I'll be back on here asking the best way to hook the fans up are.

Thanks
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  #106 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian View Post
Quickly I must note that I messed up in saying 3DGameMan had a review for the HAF, i meant the Cosmos S, sorry about that.

Well now, those are some interesting and informative posts, and I thank you for posting them as well as wish you hadn't haha! Only because now it's offered two other cases into the mix. The Silverstone TJ10, and the Cosmos 1000, already in the mix with the Antec 1200 (losing the battle horribly haha), the HAF 932 and the Cosmos S.

From what I can read, Lilo and Wilson you think that there are too many drawbacks on the Cosmos S to be worth the money it is correct? Also that you would choose the Cosmos 1000 over it?

Now the Antec 1200 has pretty much lost the battle because of all the seemingly better features on the rest of these cases.

The Cosmos 1000 looks interesting, what is it exactly just a different version of the Cosmos S? I'm starting up 3DGameMan's review of the Cosmos 1000 now and will post back when I finish it. The fact that you say the HAF isn't built very well...or at least in comparasm with the 1000 concerns me.
Also in your post Lilotech at 3dGameMan's forums, you mentioned about the dust being caught in the ridges more, just to acknowldge, my case will be stored under a desk on the floor. Or just off the floor on a block of wood or something because it's carpeted.

I would love to hear your opinions on the HAF 932 vs. the Cosmos 1000,
as well as the Cosmos 1000 vs. the Cosmos S. Since I don't know enough about cases quite yet to make a professional choice, it's nice to hear people that know what they're talking about call out the REAL pros and cons of a case. It's teaching me quite a bit!

You guys have me now questioning weather I really need the quad core or not now. I'm still going to be doing a lot of graphic design in Photoshop and web design work on the system, but is that enough to warrant a quad core? If I did drop down to a dual that would save enough money (I think) to get a more expensive case .

Thanks for your responses, hopefully I can get this issue resolved soon as I am antsy (but cannot rush) to get the whole thing ordered and together.

Edit: Just finished watching the Cosmos 1000 review and I don't like the small amount of intake on it.
They prefer the Cosmos S, it's the 1000 that has the problems. It's the 1000 I like, but yep, intake problems, and worse, cable running problems.

Take your time, look at them all again. If I had the money, I'd just get a TJ10, or maybe a LiLi. When I get serious about a case, I'll start collecting the good pics of it, so when I want to refer back to it in comparrison of another I am looking at, I only need open the folder of pics and not another web page looking for that one review or forum.

All the while, you can start buying a few of the other components as you find great prices on them and are confident you won't find better (or won't feel bad about missing a better price). Particularly, watch the prices of the cases you are interested in, and if they go on a good special. You'll get a feel for what each case is worth, and when a special price is actually special. Because you are shipping, maybe buy everything except the case in one order, and the case last. That way you only ship twice.

If you have everything else, set up on a good table, the standard open air test bench. You can play with the system for weeks like this, get everything setup and working, OS installed on the HD, patched ane clean. Then, when you put it in the case, it'll work perfectly. The only bugs you will be tracing will be case related, very easy to resolve.

Don't know if you've seen it done, quick and dirty tute:
Unpack mobo and place on top of mobo box
Drop in CPU, add goop and place HSF, plug in fan
Add Ram and vid card
Position PSU (usually at top of mobo), plug in main ATX cable, 8pin EPS power, and vid card PCIe
Jack in a keyboard and mouse, and display
Make sure the PSU is turned off, and plug it into power bar
Double check everything.
Turn on power to PSU, and watch for scary things like smoke. Keep your finger on the rocker button.
If all is well after a minute or two, hit the onboard power button on the lower right of the mobo, watch for smoke. Turn off the power if you see anything bad.
All the while, continuously tapping the delete key on the keyboard with your other hand
If all is well, you should either be in the BIOS, or maybe an error message on the screen telling you to hit F1 to enter setup (and something else to load defaults and continue). If so, hit F1 for setup.
First thing to do in the BIOS is check the temps, find it in the Power menu, Temperatures, "it will cost some time to detect fans speed". LOL.

You are now rocking. Familiarize yourself with the rest of the BIOS, read the manual, play with some of the settings. You can always esc out without saving any changes, so see what other options become available when you activate some things.

Save and exit, let it reboot and it will error that there is no drive. Turn off the power.

Jack in the DVD, burn a CD of Memtest with your current computer, put it in the drive and boot up. You can go into the BIOS and make the DVD the only drive to boot to, turn stuff you don't need off, and it will boot faster. Boot to Memtest and let it run a couple complete passes of all tests -- if there are errors, your work has just begun. If no errors, go ahead and jack in the HD and install the OS. Check temperatures while it is running, it can really stress the system -- stick your hand around the mobo areas and CPU, feel heatsink temps with the back of your fingers, anything burning hot? If so, point a fan at it and keep a closer eye on temps in the BIOS.
Plenty of help here if you run into problems. Yep, weeks of fun when you start taking things off auto and increasing the FSB.


The CPU isn't a bad thing to sacrifice for something else, because it is so easily upgraded. It's pretty much garunteed that in a year, the available CPUs for the same price you paid now, will be faster models -- or conversely, your exact CPU (as well as the one you really wanted) will be less money.

The thing is, for $300-400 the current CPUs are really powerful quads. That isn't such a bad deal, I remember single core athlons selling for that. A good dual core will save you $100-200, but have half the processing power. Granted, how often will all four cores be used? Also, the current dual cores will overclock much higher, yet that isn't a big issue here. But I think that is why many people still prefer a dual core, they want 4GHz or more. A high percentage of them are gamers and a dual core will often do just as well as a quad in most games.

Add video encoding to the mix, and a quad is the only way to go. No matter what, it just can't happen fast enough. Personally, I'd sacrifice the case before the CPU, but only when considering models of equal value. $150 for a case is still high for many people, as there are some great $50 cases to be had. However, a $50 CPU won't get you far. So I'd prefer a $300 CPU with a $150 case instead of a $300 case with a $200 CPU. The CPU may be easier to change, but for me, buying the better case later and moving into it is a joy not a chore. That way, I get the speed and power now, elegance later.

Consider also, that getting a HAF is hardly a sacrifice. As well, a good case will last you for years, at least a couple or few system upgrades. Otherwise, it wasn't all that good or a better one came along later.

.
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  #107 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sswilson View Post
Actually, I much prefer the Cosmos S over the Cosmos 1000, although a big part of that is as a water cooling / overclocking case.

My "build log" on the Cosmos S with some comparisons between it and the original Cosmos 1000 is here.... http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum...html#post48345
Doh! That's the thread I meant to link, could only find the other one. Awesome read!

.
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  #108 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian View Post
Very impressive! It seems the Cosmos S is doing wonders for you. You're really tempting me to get it over the HAF 932.

The cable routing gets one excited...seems so flawless.

I have a couple questions about it though.

From what I can see from the specs of the case stock it can hold:
(1) 120mm fan in the front (intake)
(3) 120mm fans on top (exhaust)
(1) 120mm fan at the rear (exhaust)
(1) 230mm fan on the side (intake)
I hope that's right.

You've modded it to where you have an extra 120mm in the drive bay (very good idea by the way) right?
The front 120mm, that bolts onto the hard drive cage at the bottom? (Judging from the picture on the Cooler Master website.)

Now here are the brutal rookie questions. If I go with the Cosmos S, can the fans easily be switched to LED fans (on the top and front)?
If so, I need to ask what fans to get, like what RPM fans and brand that are good quality, and if they'll run good enough to keep the system cool under load while gaming as they are without having a speed control on them.
I noticed the post in your log there about the side fans imploding and flying through the case, so would it be a good idea to get guards? Can you get guards to fit on a fan that size or do they have to be ordered? (See I don't know much)
Another thing about the guards, would it be a good idea to guard all the fans in the case? Even the 120mm without disrupting the airflow.

I'll be using only air cooling, I hope it's enough with just air cooling.

I'm sure whichever case I get I'll be back on here asking the best way to hook the fans up are.

Thanks
It's a nice system, isn't it? Aye!

Disintegrating fans is rare, first I have heard of it was in a HAF thread where someone liked the fan guard that came with it on the side panel. I wouldn't worry about grills on any others except where wires (or your fingers) may be close. Otherwise, it's just bling.

Replacing all the fans is easy, but can be expensive, especially with high quality fans at $20 per. Not sure atm how many fans the case comes with, but seem to recall it was decent. I also liked his drive bay fan mod, done similar myself with nuts and bolts instead of rivets, but never had it fit so well in the front of a case like that.

.
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian View Post
Very impressive! It seems the Cosmos S is doing wonders for you. You're really tempting me to get it over the HAF 932.

The cable routing gets one excited...seems so flawless.

I have a couple questions about it though.

From what I can see from the specs of the case stock it can hold:
(1) 120mm fan in the front (intake)
(3) 120mm fans on top (exhaust)
(1) 120mm fan at the rear (exhaust)
(1) 230mm fan on the side (intake)
I hope that's right.

You've modded it to where you have an extra 120mm in the drive bay (very good idea by the way) right?
The front 120mm, that bolts onto the hard drive cage at the bottom? (Judging from the picture on the Cooler Master website.)

Now here are the brutal rookie questions. If I go with the Cosmos S, can the fans easily be switched to LED fans (on the top and front)?
If so, I need to ask what fans to get, like what RPM fans and brand that are good quality, and if they'll run good enough to keep the system cool under load while gaming as they are without having a speed control on them.
I noticed the post in your log there about the side fans imploding and flying through the case, so would it be a good idea to get guards? Can you get guards to fit on a fan that size or do they have to be ordered? (See I don't know much)
Another thing about the guards, would it be a good idea to guard all the fans in the case? Even the 120mm without disrupting the airflow.

I'll be using only air cooling, I hope it's enough with just air cooling.

I'm sure whichever case I get I'll be back on here asking the best way to hook the fans up are.

Thanks
IIRC, the case ships with a red LED fan in the front (part of the HDD case), and yes, you can pick and chose which fans you want to install. The only limitation on this would be the 3 I have installed on top (pull) which must be standard depth (some high CFM fans are 38mm and wouldn't fit up there),

The choice of LED fans is going to be greatly affected by what colour you want and what is in stock ATM, but many folks around here seem to like the Zalman fans.

I also wouldn't be too concerned with the "exploding fans" issue... you can check with Coolermaster, but I suspect if they had a problem that they've addressed it by now and include the modified one with new cases. (I haven't had an issue with mine)

As far as cooling goes.... with the large side fan alone I can't imagine that anybody would have cooling issues with this case. The 120s are just icing on the cake. :) (BTW... you missed one 120mm mount. If you look at the pics, there's a spot for one on the bottom front which draws in from under the case).
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  #110 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 12:57 PM
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Ahh right I did miss that 120mm at the bottom.
Alright so here is what I'm proposing to myself.
As it stands I don't really want to spend the extra money on the Cosmos S because it's about $100 more than the HAF 932.
BUT, my (what I hope is a good idea) is to save $200 by downgrading from a 24" monitor to a 22". NCIX is having a sale on a 22" Samsung right now that's only $200 instead of the almost $400 I'll be paying for the 24".
So with that said, that would cover the costs of the more expensive Cosmos S case as well as 3 LED fans for the top.
A 22" monitor should be nice and sufficient for me. It's not a 24" but hey...it's better than spending $200 more.

I'm going to make one more post here as a (second) revised list of hardware and do some pricing on it and then I should be pretty much ready to order!!!!!!!!!!
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