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  #91 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by sswilson View Post
Actually the possible issue with a speed controller is just the opposite to what you're concerned about.

The controller at max will supply normal voltages which will run the fans at default. If you turn the controller down too much, there might not be enough current flow to get them started during boot-up.
Especially with that Sunbeam. Most controllers only slow the fans down to 5V, which should be enough to get them spinning at startup. The Sunbeam will actually click OFF at the lower end, and will slow the fans down as far as they will possibly go -- which will definately not be enough to get them spinning at startup. The LEDs turn red at half way, so you will know to check them. Mine are usually set at just above half way, when the LED turns blue -- except for the CPU fan which I set just below half way. I can hear the fans too, so I know they are spinning or not. It's been fine, but yes, you have to be aware of things.

.
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian View Post
So it might be best (if choosing the 1200 case) to just let the fans do what they do with the speed controllers provided on them? If so that might be better for me, every little less bit of confusion helps haha.
That's one of the benefits of the Antec cases that use the Tri-Cool fans, for sure.

In the 1200 case, they put all the fan speed switches in a single plate mounted on the back of the case. I didn't know this, and must applaud them for it. In previous cases, you had to open the system to access the switches.

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  #93 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 09:03 AM
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You know its a very good discussion between what to choose from the HAF 932 and the Cosmos S case.. I wouldn't want to comment on the HAF 932 yet, since it's still a new flagship and I haven't seen much or read mich on it.

However the Cosmos S is a very nicely built case, the interior is huge. Nice cable management system, but I will agree with sswilson, considering the price difference better to settle with the HAF 932, it's still a pretty good case.

I would totally have to agree with Lithotec's mega post, Quad cores is seriously a waste of cash, If I were you, I would settle in for an E8400 or E8600. You only want a Quad if your on heavy media encoding, then you can fully utilize the 2 extra cores.

As for the board, the P5Q deluxe is a very good board, and the only difference in addition to what on the P5Q-ELithotec mentioned was it has 2 less SATA ports other than the 8 phase design he mentioned.

Nice pick on the RAM, you will totally love those Redlines.

On the Quads part, considering the Q9550 is less than $10 more than the Q9450, why not.. go for it.
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  #94 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Lithotech View Post
That's one of the benefits of the Antec cases that use the Tri-Cool fans, for sure.

In the 1200 case, they put all the fan speed switches in a single plate mounted on the back of the case. I didn't know this, and must applaud them for it. In previous cases, you had to open the system to access the switches.

.
That's good to know. I liked the fact that the sonatta III fan has a switch on it, but wasn't too keen on the switch just hanging down like it does.
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian View Post
Alright so it seems I'll end up going with the HAF 932. Looking at more extensive reviews of it (although 3D game man rated both the 932 and the Antec 1200 as 100% kickass products hehe) it seems to be doing a great job. 3 Huge 230mm fans seems to be enough haha.

My one question is: are the stock fans good enough to efficiently cool this system? (Question meant for someone who has an HAF 932 case, or knows about it and such.) Or should I upgrade some of the fans to "higher end" ones.

I'm coming close to just saying screw it and getting the Cosmos S, BUT I'm already way overbudget as it is haha. We'll see, I'll probably just go with the HAF 932.

*shakes fist at Lithotech* HAHA! I thought I had it all figured out. But it's good that you opened my eyes to this case once again. I sort of overlooked it because I was more drawn to the larger number of fans in the Antec 1200, rather than the fewer larger fans with better airflow.
I didn't know 3D GameMan had a review out on the 932? Ah... I see now, it isn't finished yet (no pics or vid).

HAHAH! You really gonna hate me now!

More fans does not always make a case cooler. Over fanning a case is a common mistake, and can cause problems. Rather than go into a diatribe about circulation and airflow, let me just say that either the 1200 or the HAF will work great out of the box without changing out any of the fans (or adding more). This isn't necessarily true with many cases, but should be with these two. So to answer your question, yes, either of these two cases will easily cool your system, and in fact, probably better than most other cases on the market.

We could count up the total CFM in both cases, compare CFM in to CFM out, and get a better idea of how the larger fans compare. But it is still apples and oranges because we need to take the internal circulation efficiency into consideration too.

Most of the time people swap out stock fans is because they want different color LED, quieter or more powerful fans.

The computer case is largely a personal choice. For many people, looks are more important than cooling performance. Other than your display, the case is the most often part you (and others) will look at. When shopping for parts for a client build, the case is by far the most time consuming part to choose.

All I can say, is take your time with the case, there is no hurry and you already have the rest of the system locked down with excellent choices that should have very few (if any) incompatibilities. It really helps if you can get to a store that has the cases on display, so that you can actually see and touch them. Not an option for many people, but I am lucky enough to have a store near me that tends to stock recent higher end cases that are on display on a large table that allows you to open them up and have a good look. I went there last weekend and was delighted to see they had a HAF in stock, and was able to see it up beside a Cosmos and Stacker 830. See this thread for some of my comments:

A case to watch... Coolermaster HAF 932 - Page 2 - 3dGameMan: Kickass Forum

I'll comment on these two cases some more in my reply to your earlier post.

.
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Last edited by Lithotech; September 25, 2008 at 09:24 AM.
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by sswilson View Post
Heh... c'mon.... you know you want it.... :)

Seriously though, if I were looking for a new case these days I'd probably settle on the HAF considering the price difference between it and the Cosmos S.

As far as fans go... I'm sure the cooling will be sufficient, but you may want to get replacements for the 120mm fans. Most folks I know find the Coolermaster 120mm fans to be quite loud.
I've been agonizing over the choice between a Cosmos, Stacker, and now the HAF for months now. I want a bigger case for my main rig, which is crammed into an older P180.

The Cosmos is only $40 or so more, and I think it is 10x the build quality. However, it has some "issues" that bother me. It's the original Cosmos 1000 I like, with the drive drawers, noise controlling foam, and front door. The Cosmos S improved a lot on the original, but lacks the features that originally appealed to me. The Stacker is also sweet, yet forget about silence and drive drawers -- at least it is still large inside yet a smaller footprint on the desk (love it's look too). Now the HAF comes in at $40-50 less, is bigger inside while seeming smaller than the Cosmos footprint, yet has none of the clean look. My P180, being silver and black, I have matched the rest of my desk with the same theme, so the original Cosmos silver will fit nice. A third case I'd like is the Silverstone TJ10, but I would probably buy a HAF to live in until I saved enough money for a TJ -- which is hard to do when I keep buying other crap.

The HAF doesn't have any 120mm fans, it is the Cosmos and Stacker that people complain about the intake 120mm fan being too loud, correct?

Anyway, I am torn between living with the Cosmos' shortcomings, or save a few bucks and live with a HAF until I find something even better.

.
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithotech View Post
I've been agonizing over the choice between a Cosmos, Stacker, and now the HAF for months now. I want a bigger case for my main rig, which is crammed into an older P180.

The Cosmos is only $40 or so more, and I think it is 10x the build quality. However, it has some "issues" that bother me. It's the original Cosmos 1000 I like, with the drive drawers, noise controlling foam, and front door. The Cosmos S improved a lot on the original, but lacks the features that originally appealed to me. The Stacker is also sweet, yet forget about silence and drive drawers -- at least it is still large inside yet a smaller footprint on the desk (love it's look too). Now the HAF comes in at $40-50 less, is bigger inside while seeming smaller than the Cosmos footprint, yet has none of the clean look. My P180, being silver and black, I have matched the rest of my desk with the same theme, so the original Cosmos silver will fit nice. A third case I'd like is the Silverstone TJ10, but I would probably buy a HAF to live in until I saved enough money for a TJ -- which is hard to do when I keep buying other crap.

The HAF doesn't have any 120mm fans, it is the Cosmos and Stacker that people complain about the intake 120mm fan being too loud, correct?

Anyway, I am torn between living with the Cosmos' shortcomings, or save a few bucks and live with a HAF until I find something even better.

.
Somebody's been doing their homework.... :)

Personally, having worked with both the original Cosmos 1000 and my current Cosmos S I myself wouldn't be willing to sacrifice the poor backside cable management, and lack of a full push/pull stealth rad install that the S offers over the 1000, but that's going to be a personal choice as long as a person is well informed of the differences.

I envy you the ability to get touchy feely with high(er) end cases... too often we're stuck ordering something we never get a chance to physically check out.
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  #98 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 10:02 AM
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Quickly I must note that I messed up in saying 3DGameMan had a review for the HAF, i meant the Cosmos S, sorry about that.

Well now, those are some interesting and informative posts, and I thank you for posting them as well as wish you hadn't haha! Only because now it's offered two other cases into the mix. The Silverstone TJ10, and the Cosmos 1000, already in the mix with the Antec 1200 (losing the battle horribly haha), the HAF 932 and the Cosmos S.

From what I can read, Lilo and Wilson you think that there are too many drawbacks on the Cosmos S to be worth the money it is correct? Also that you would choose the Cosmos 1000 over it?

Now the Antec 1200 has pretty much lost the battle because of all the seemingly better features on the rest of these cases.

The Cosmos 1000 looks interesting, what is it exactly just a different version of the Cosmos S? I'm starting up 3DGameMan's review of the Cosmos 1000 now and will post back when I finish it. The fact that you say the HAF isn't built very well...or at least in comparasm with the 1000 concerns me.
Also in your post Lilotech at 3dGameMan's forums, you mentioned about the dust being caught in the ridges more, just to acknowldge, my case will be stored under a desk on the floor. Or just off the floor on a block of wood or something because it's carpeted.

I would love to hear your opinions on the HAF 932 vs. the Cosmos 1000,
as well as the Cosmos 1000 vs. the Cosmos S. Since I don't know enough about cases quite yet to make a professional choice, it's nice to hear people that know what they're talking about call out the REAL pros and cons of a case. It's teaching me quite a bit!

You guys have me now questioning weather I really need the quad core or not now. I'm still going to be doing a lot of graphic design in Photoshop and web design work on the system, but is that enough to warrant a quad core? If I did drop down to a dual that would save enough money (I think) to get a more expensive case .

Thanks for your responses, hopefully I can get this issue resolved soon as I am antsy (but cannot rush) to get the whole thing ordered and together.

Edit: Just finished watching the Cosmos 1000 review and I don't like the small amount of intake on it.

Last edited by Brian; September 25, 2008 at 10:12 AM.
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Old September 25, 2008, 10:39 AM
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The HAF case is great value given the features, I love that you can change heat-sink back-plates without removing the whole board.

It doesn't look like you can fit a triple radiator in there though, not a huge issue but would be nice if you could.

Anyway you've got some good options there for your build. I suppose it boils down to do you want a high quality aluminum case or a case with similar build features that looks good but is heavier with cheaper build quality. Personally I'd go with an E8400 or 8500 and inject the money elsewhere, the new quads just seem to be a royal pain to oc unless you get the more pricey ones.
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Last edited by magictorch; September 25, 2008 at 10:50 AM.
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  #100 (permalink)  
Old September 25, 2008, 10:57 AM
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There's so much stuff to learn and consider it can get overwhelming for a first time builder!

Thanks for the mega response Lithotech, notes some helpful key points.
First off, I have decided (not sure if I posted) that I'll be going with the P5Q Deluxe board.

In response to the points made about the Antec 1200 case fans. Can I not just plug the 3 front panel fans into the PSU? I know someone who said that's how his are setup, with an adapter. Also, if I can plug them into the power supply that would be just fine because since they have a speed control on them already I don't really need to control their speeds outside of the 3 speed control. Same goes for the rear fans with speed control.
Now that you've brought up the CM HAF again I really don't know. That case is smaller is it not? I know it has a larger fan, but does it efficiantly cool the hardware better than the 1200? I know in terms of fans bigger is better, but what about the number of fans on the HAF compared to the 1200. Bigger is better but is "that much more" (as in the 8 possible fans on the 1200) better yet? I want to keep the hardware as cool as I can. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bad mouth the HAF 932, it's an awesome case no doubt, I just want to choose the better of the two for the system that will be inside.....which may very well be the HAF 932 haha.

Now since the Cooler Master has been brought up...what is the better case (for this system) The HAF 932 or the Cosmos S? (Although the Cosmos S is much more expensive.)

In terms of the notice the fans would make with the 1200, that doesn't concern me much because my desk is setup so the tower sits on the floor underneath the very big desk top. So when you're sitting at the desk above the desk top, it masks some of the sound. Plus when I'm gaming I'll have a headset on so that won't bother me much.

For the speed controllers you posted, I'm still new at all this and don't really know what to expect in terms of hookup and control with them, or what fans to use it on. I don't want to end up turning the dial up higher than the fan's RPM limit is and mess something up, if that's possible.

As for the processor, you've reccommended the Q9450 over the Q9550? I don't plan on doing much overclocking (if any) for a while because I'm still new to it and have never done overclocking before. I chose the 2.8GHz Q9550 over the 2.6 Q9450 because well it's at least a bit faster if I never OC it. But I figured in the future if I do, the Q9550 would be a better starting point. Plus from what I can see the Q9550 is cheaper than the Q9450? I don't really understand that but yea...

Also about the RAM, I did decide to change to PC2 8500 Muskin memory at 1066Mhz.
NCIX.com - Buy Mushkin XP PC2-8500 4GB 2X2GB DDR2-1066 CL5-5-5-15 240PIN Dual Channel Memory Kit - 996599 In Canada.

You've definitely sparked some more questions and debating hehe.
It can get overwhelming for experienced builders! Trust me on that!

You are very welcome, I am happy to help. Obviously, I have too much time in the mornings these days, lol. I think you will be glad you went with the Deluxe mobo, the ncix weekly sale price on it as of last night is only $208, only $40 more than the P5Q-E. That may seem stiff for 16 pase power, but it is one sweet mobo that should last you a long time.

Yes, the Antec fans plug into the PSU (with a 4 pin molex plug). The problem with that, is that they cannot plug into the mobo (3 pin connection), which will report RPMs and controll fan speed automatically. I am a sensor nut, I like cars with all the guages, and I like computers with all the sensors. Fans that don't plug into this are avoided by me.

The HAF is actually a bit bigger than the 1200, which is still a little taller than the HAF:
Antec 1200 - H 22.9 x W 8.4 x L 20.2
CM HAF - H 21.5 x W 9.0 x L 22.7
The Antec is a little cramped in terms of length/depth, and full length vid cards can be a pinch against the middle HD drive bay. It is specced for a maximum ATX size mobo.

The HAF is specced for a maximum EATX mobo, which gains it some extra space in length/depth. There will be gobs of room with full length vid cards.

Both cases come with a very complete compliment of fans, which can be rare sometimes. There are still free slots, but no desperate need to fill them. If you pulled the large fans out of the HAF and replaced them with 120mm fans, and filled all the slots, the HAF will hold more than the 1200. I saw a pic of this done, but the reason was for look and not because the stock fans were inadequate.

Really no need to worry about cooling in either of these cases, with stock fans. Only that the 1200 with the fans on high will sound like a jet plane.

Now here is where you will hate me. There are a few things about the Antec 1200 that I like, and are lacking in the HAF:
The inside is painted. You can paint the HAF yourself, but I think CM should have done it like Antec, and this is a common complaint I've seen when reading about the HAF. I suspect that CM may release an aluminum version of the HAF, and maybe that is why they don't paint it, they want to sell the next one instead.

The Antec has fan filters. For me, this is important since my basement office is very dusty. My P180 can go 6 months to a year without a clean inside, and still has very little dust on the mobo etc. I clean the filters about once a month, simply pop them out and pass the vacuume over them (they say they are washable, but mine have never seen water).

The Antec 1200 fixed the cable management problems that were in the 900 (which is actually quite a small case for even a mid tower). My previous statement about this was incorrect, or at least not refering to the 1200. There are plenty of holes in the mobo tray to route all the cables neatly and easily. This is also the biggest appeal for the HAF, there will be no fussing to hide cables. The Antec is one up on this, as there is a hole for the ATX 12V (or EPS) line, where in the HAF you will have to use a slot/hole that is originally for an upper mounted PSU -- the main different is that it is in plain view, in fact the window shows only above the mobo, where there is nothing to see unless you have a radiator there. This is one reason why I wanted to mount the PSU on top, at least something will be visible other than a couple of wires that seem out of place.
The Cosmos isn't all that much more expensive. I am still considering one myself, I love the look of it. The problems I have with it are numerous. Mainly, the drive drawers (in the original 1000 version) have crap cooling. The drives are mounted the wrong way, and the first drive blocks air going to the rest of the drives. As well, the lower row of drawers does not have any cooling at all! The Cosmos S changed all that, putting the drives in a bay that fits into a regular vertical drive stack (like the Stacker). Two problems with this (for me), I need to have 5-6 drives and the bay only holds 4, and I like the look of the drawer system (regardless of cooling). There are some cable routing issues behind the mobo tray, and no holes where there needs to be. Dashock has a great thread illustrating some of these issues here:

Coolermaster Cosmos S Non-XSPC review on a Watercooling build

When I first saw the HAF at the store, it stuck me as being perfect for under a desk. It has wheels you can use if you like, and the tray on top would be handy. It would also hide much of it's industrial look, showing mostly the front bezel which looks pretty nice. The Antec 1200 will also sit nicely under a desk.

Fan speed controllers you can add later, in either of the cases. Good rainy day project. In the interm, the Antec has that built in and the HAF you can control the fans with the mobo.

If the Q9550 is cheaper than the Q9450, then there is no question about it! Go with the faster CPU. The Q9550 is a better starting point mostly for it's higher multiplier. In terms of stock speed, more is always better. I have an E6750 that runs 100% stable at 3.8GHz. Once I hit that mark, I set it back to stock speed one day, activating all the power saving features, and have yet to bump it back up. At 2.66GHz, it is perfectly fast enough for my use, and I get 150-250 FPS in my favorite game. I see little benefit in getting maybe 300FPS or more, because anything over 100FPS is perfectly smooth and impressive. Most of my overclocking is done for the joy of achieving a high stable clock speed, bench the living crap out of it, but use the system at stock speed. I always have one or two other systems here in progress of overclocking, I enjoy the procedure. So it's not like I have to use my main system for an OC fix. Beware though, once you get bitten by the bug, it's very hard to remain conservative about it! I can't tell you how much I have spent on better heatsinks and cooling, only that I have still yet to break into watercooling and doubt thta I will any time soon. It is too expensive and I get very very good results on air. I can say that most of my top speeds achieved have been limited by heat, and I have yet to find a chips potential top speed because of it.

Nothing wrong with stock speed! It's all good!

The most enjoyment I get from overclocking is not the CPU, but rather, the RAM. Tuning RAM is damn fun, tweaking every inch of performance out of it, and always find the maximum potential because you are no longer limited to heat on the CPU. It's much more time consuming though, and I really don't visit it until I have already found the maximum CPU speed.

That Mushkin ram is nice! Lots of hours of fun playing with it, the 4GB size will make memtest run way slow! LOL. I wonder how tight they will run at stock speed?

.
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