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  #31 (permalink)  
Old June 12, 2012, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AkG View Post
/sigh

OK one last time.

The images will NOT look the same. YES they will be the same bloody "size" on the screen. BUT the upscalled one will have ONE QUARTER THE DPI / RESOLUTION. Upscalling means what was once 1 blue dot is now 4 blue dots. 1 green...4....1 red....4. It. Will. Be. Fuzzy.

Most jpgs on the net are at best 300dpi resolution. Lets make it easy and say the beaver logo is at 320dpi at 480p res. Up-scalling it will net a four times the size image but by doing so will net the equivalent of 80 dots per inch. Lossy compression means you cant just add in the "missing" details. The OS will guess...but it will be a guess. Dot size matters with images.

Once again. Either the images will look worse than they would on a normal screen OR they will be smaller. Thats. The. Only. Two. Possible. Outcomes. As. There. Is. No. Magical. Device. That. Adds. Resolution. To. Lossey. Images.
Yes, the images will look the same. If you scale using any of the scaling options other than 1440x900, then they'll look fuzzy, because there's interpolation happening, but turning every 1 green dot to 4 green dots results in no fuzziness.

Mixing dpi into this doesn't make sense, it's only relevant in the context of screen size or printing. The dpi onscreen is a simple result of the resolution and screen size. Lossiness also is irrelevant in this context, lossy and lossless images behave exactly the same with respect to scaling.

I know you can't add resolution to raster images, as I've mentioned in every post in this thread, which is why they'll look exactly the same as a 1440x900 screen, rather than better, as UI elements and text will.


Look, here is an screengrab of Final Fantasy 6 for Gameboy Advance, scaled up by 2 (unscaled here):



No fuzziness at all. Now, if you put this image on a 2.9 inch 480x320 screen, it's going to look exactly the same as the unscaled image on the GBA's actual 2.9 inch 240x160 screen.

Last edited by Mars; June 12, 2012 at 03:51 PM.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old June 12, 2012, 03:39 PM
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Whenever Apple sets the bar, the industry plays catch-up. Eventually, whatever Apple releases will become the norm of all laptops, they set a new bar again. Rinse and repeat. What's there to complain about (other than the price)?

Mind you, a disproportionately large amount of users in the world don't need all the computing power that they have. Most users in the world who is 'facebooks' exclusively can get by with a Pentium 3, but does that mean we should only sell pentium 3 laptops? Technological progress pushes practical boundaries and that's how we get to where we are today.

I guess haters will always been around, but it's nice to have a industry leader that is consistently giving the whole mobile computing industry a boot in the ass from time to time to keep them from going the way of RIM.

Apple = rustlin' jimmies
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old June 12, 2012, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SneakySnake View Post
I guess it's a miracle how phone's do it then. Look at iPhone apps that were designed for 480x320 resolution (the iPhone 3GS). When you display the same app on the iPhone 4, it looks identical. There no fussiness or anything your describing.
That's is because on a 3.5inch screen it is very difficult to tell the difference. If you pull out an iPad it looks like garbage and it uses basically the same OS. Move that up to a 13 inch lappy and it will be even worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars View Post
Yes, the images will look the same. If you scale using any of the scaling options other than 1440x900, then they'll look fuzzy, because there's interpolation happening, but turning every 1 green dot to 4 green dots results in no fuzziness.

Mixing dpi into this doesn't make sense, it's only relevant in the context of screen size or printing. The dpi onscreen is a simple result of the resolution and screen size. Lossiness also is irrelevant in this context, lossy and lossless images behave exactly the same with respect to scaling.

I know you can't add resolution to raster images, as I've mentioned in every post in this thread, which is why they'll look exactly the same as a 1440x900 screen, rather than better, as UI elements and text will.
Turning 1 green pixel into 4 green pixels essentially makes your 4 green pixels 1 pixel and it will look the same as a normal screen of the same size just using 1 pixel anyways.


Quote:
Originally Posted by geoc View Post
Whenever Apple sets the bar, the industry plays catch-up. Eventually, whatever Apple releases will become the norm of all laptops, they set a new bar again. Rinse and repeat. What's there to complain about (other than the price)?

Mind you, a disproportionately large amount of users in the world don't need all the computing power that they have. Most users in the world who is 'facebooks' exclusively can get by with a Pentium 3, but does that mean we should only sell pentium 3 laptops? Technological progress pushes practical boundaries and that's how we get to where we are today.

I guess haters will always been around, but it's nice to have a industry leader that is consistently giving the whole mobile computing industry a boot in the ass from time to time to keep them from going the way of RIM.

Apple = rustlin' jimmies
The only thing apple has set the bar on is screen resolution which we are currently arguing makes no sense. Apple really isn't innovating very much, they are just taking other peoples tech and putting it into a laptop the same as any other OEM. They take the same parts as other people and just charge more and offer above average customer service.

P.S I really hope apple hasn't "set the bar" with ram sticks being soldered onto the logic board otherwise i will be super pissed. I guess they really want you to pay them $100 for that 2gb ram upgrade so you can't do your own for $20.

Last edited by JJThomp; June 12, 2012 at 03:55 PM.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old June 12, 2012, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJThomp View Post
That's is because on a 3.5inch screen it is very difficult to tell the difference. If you pull out an iPad it looks like garbage and it uses basically the same OS. Move that up to a 13 inch lappy and it will be even worse.
No, it's not a size thing with a difference being difficult to tell, the iphone4 is exactly double the old resolution, so old apps look exactly the same. The ipad is a different resolution and size, so some kind of scaling other than just replacing each pixel with 4 pixels of the same colour has to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJThomp View Post
Turning 1 green pixel into 4 green pixels essentially makes your 4 green pixels 1 pixel and it will look the same as a normal screen of the same size just using 1 pixel anyways.
Right, that's what I've been saying.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old June 12, 2012, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars View Post
Right, that's what I've been saying.
Thats pretty much what AKG has been saying... it will make the image fuzzy though if you are upconverting no matter what your DPI is though... I think you are arguing the same point without knowing it.

Oh okay I think I get what you are saying now... basically what you are saying is that if two images are the same size on any screen of any resolution (obviously barring a smaller resolution than the image in question). AKG is saying yes but only if you are using 360p, 480p etc.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old June 12, 2012, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJThomp View Post
Thats pretty much what AKG has been saying... it will make the image fuzzy though if you are upconverting no matter what your DPI is though... I think you are arguing the same point without knowing it.

Oh okay I think I get what you are saying now... basically what you are saying is that if two images are the same size on any screen of any resolution (obviously barring a smaller resolution than the image in question). AKG is saying yes but only if you are using 360p, 480p etc.
No, if you replace every pixel with 4, it will not look fuzzy, it will look the same.

Edit to reply to your edit:

I'm not saying the two images can be the same size on screens of any resolution - it only works in multiples, but it works for any image if your screens are multiples of each other. (Like the 2880x1800 vs 1440x900 on the MBP.)

Any image you view on the MBP is going to look exactly the same as on a 1440x900 screen - you won't even be able to view images larger than 1440x900 without scrolling.

Last edited by Mars; June 12, 2012 at 04:08 PM.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old June 12, 2012, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars View Post
No, if you replace every pixel with 4, it will not look fuzzy, it will look the same.
you keep using this 4to1 conversion but this is not a perfect world you cannot just make an image use 4 pixels unless it is exactly 4x the density otherwise it will change the size the inexact conversion ratio causes the fuzziness.

Say for every 1 pixel you scale the image and it only has space to use 3 pixels to keep the image the same size. Now in your block of 4 pixels that would be equivalent to 1 pixel you are only using 3 pixels to keep the image the right size, you are now blurring your image.

Anyways whether it looks the same or not is irrelevant because the original discussion was that it will not make the images look better.

Okay you edited your post... now your argument is exactly the same as AKG's and I don't know why you were arguing in the first place. Clearly some misunderstandings.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old June 12, 2012, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJThomp View Post
you keep using this 4to1 conversion but this is not a perfect world you cannot just make an image use 4 pixels unless it is exactly 4x the density otherwise it will change the size the inexact conversion ratio causes the fuzziness.

Say for every 1 pixel you scale the image and it only has space to use 3 pixels to keep the image the same size. Now in your block of 4 pixels that would be equivalent to 1 pixel you are only using 3 pixels to keep the image the right size, you are now blurring your image.

Anyways whether it looks the same or not is irrelevant because the original discussion was that it will not make the images look better.

Okay you edited your post... now your argument is exactly the same as AKG's and I don't know why you were arguing in the first place. Clearly some misunderstandings.
Yeah, the MBP scaling does always make an image use 4 pixels, that's the point. If there's not enough space, then it won't fit on the screen.

The original discussion was me pointing out that it won't make images look worse - I've been clear from the start that it's not going to make images look better either - images will all look the same.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old June 12, 2012, 04:30 PM
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That is the point though. This is not something magical that will make resized images look crisp. If it looks like crap on normal display it is going to look like crap on a retina display.
BUT
If it looks good on a normal display it is going to look good on a retina display.

Where things get interesting is when the software takes advantages of the retina display to use those extra tiiiny pixels for things like font smoothing and UI elements. Or even games. Who needs antialiasing if your game supports this retina setup?
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old June 12, 2012, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SneakySnake View Post
In smartphones like I was talking about? Retina screens are definitely a necessary feature. No one in their right mind would get a phone that didn't have one. Look at all the major smartphones. iPhone 4S, Galaxy SIII, HTC One X, Galaxy Nexus, etc. they all have retina screens...
I am in my right mind, and I got a Galaxy 2 S X over any version of the iPhone anyday.

Larger screen > high resolution small screen.

And seriously, drop the term "retina", it's.... too maccy.

To me, and most everyone else that doesn't believe in Mac magic, a higher resolution was a way of using a much bigger monitor without the DPI going too low.

IE: 21 inch 1080p vs a 27 inch 1080p. Yes, one is bigger, but the DPI starts to approach a limit where the pixels are starting to get too big.

However, a 30" monitor at 2560x1600 is bigger but still has a usable DPI

Doubling the pixels of a postage stamp still makes a stamp, and it doesn't look any better. It's too small to make use of the additional resolution anyway.

Last edited by Perineum; June 12, 2012 at 05:09 PM.
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