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  #61 (permalink)  
Old May 19, 2010, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Perineum View Post
Basically, you're doing the "mac phenomenon".

You are taking one of the cons of owning a Mac and turning it into a pro.

Essentially, you're saying:

"Because the Mac is hardly upgradable it is better. Having very little choice in customizing your Mac means that no one really has to write drivers, make existing ones any better, or worry about QA control. Because of this, if the drivers simply work, even if they aren't efficient, it's good enough for us."

Much like my earlier example about the guy who got a replacement Mac for the one that died. He didn't have a Mac failure. He got a "free" laptop using a warranty he paid for. He'd score pretty high on the "customer satisfaction" reviews even though his Mac blew up.

I saw it in the Amiga world, I did some of it myself until I woke up.

You see it with Harley owners. They pay 4x the amount for a bike that barely functions and gets it's ass handed to it in every way by a touring/sport touring/sportbike of AZN make.

etc....
Sigh I never said there were no cons. I so dam wished Mac was fully open but there are benefits to being closed.

Also anyone should be happy when they get a replacement. Stuff happens and a company like Apple cares WAY more than Microsoft about the customer. My friend bought Windows 7 and for some reason his copy was no longer genuine. After 3 weeks on the phone he got nothing and had to buy a new copy. Not to mention the representatives were in India so they didn't understand half the things he was saying. With Apple you get one on one time. So Apple cares about its customers. That is worth money to me.

I also kind of see it slightly insulting to call me a Mac person. I will not pay for one of their computers till they get reasonable prices for hardware. So no I have never owned on of their computers but use them all the time as everyone except for 2 run Mac in my family of 5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synth View Post
Apple forum?



[/i]I see it as a pro as well: whilst Windows Vista and 7 had launch issues because of drivers (like the nVidia ones for example), it was a non-issue for Mac OSX.

Restricting the quantity of hardware a system can support does not mean crappier drivers - it means a more solid base than can be fined tuned due to the stability of the platform.

And I wouldn't say that Macs are "hardly" upgradable - they are just "not" upgradable. As soon as you pop open your Mini, you can bet your @ss you've broken retaining pins off the lid and your warranty is void. Is that a con? To an overclocker, modder, etc - yes. To a regular user? No.
I believe Apple's warranty will still cover upgrading a Mac mini as long as you don't damage any of the hardware. My brother has upgraded many Mac Mini's and they still had warranty. He even upgraded his iMac and still had warranty. Apple has some of the best warranty out there. They even covered my brother's iPhone when he dropped it in the snow and a car ran over it. They replaced it even though they didn't have to.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old May 19, 2010, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Perineum View Post
I have to agree and disagree.

I agree with your statement about users. I *ACTUALLY* had to teach an older woman about picking up a mouse and moving it to the top of the mouse pad in order to move the mouse pointer further down. She had run out of mouse pad and couldn't get the cursor to the taskbar. I actually started to smile when I thought she was pulling my leg but quickly recovered when I realized she was dead serious.
...so a closed and controlled system is not bad afterall ?

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Originally Posted by Perineum View Post
I agree with your statement about users. I *ACTUALLY* had to teach an older woman about picking up a mouse and moving it to the top of the mouse pad in order to move the mouse pointer further down. She had run out of mouse pad and couldn't get the cursor to the taskbar. I actually started to smile when I thought she was pulling my leg but quickly recovered when I realized she was dead serious.

I disagree about PC companies not caring. Microsoft bends over backwards to try and help out moronic users. I mean.... how many UAC style prompts do we have to endure now in order to be TOTALLY sure about installing "THIS_IS_A_VIRUS.EXE"? The browser blocks the download, which you override. Then when you double click on it you get another requester that is titled "OPEN FILE - SECURITY WARNING" which then tries to tell you about the dangers of the file type to which you can "open" or "cancel". Even after alllllllll that you'll get a UAC prompt that darkens and focuses the screen for the most ADHD ridden user, again, trying to warn them.

Don't you think these people deserve it sometimes?

I've seen people browsing on 19" monitors with 10 fking toolbars! It's worse than browsing from my phone as my phone has more actual screen space! It's not hard to turn them off either anymore!

MS gives out free antivirus, and made Windows Defender part of the OS.
The UAC was about as usefull and annoying as a popup of a duck asking you for your credit card number. imo again.

And -yes-, they deserve it and pay for being retarded which is perfect.


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Originally Posted by Perineum View Post
No, not really. I've just taught her where to look, and fine tune her "Bull-shit-o-meter". When webbrowsing, I've taught her to look first where the link is going to take her before clicking. This is done by hovering the mouse over the link and then looking in the bottom left corner to see where it's going to go. Furthermore I've taught her about how domains on the net work. IE: paypal.com.security.ru is *not* from security.paypal.com.

She's gotten herself in a bit too deep but then had her "spidey sense" tingling, then asked me about it. She did stop before there was a problem though.

I *try* and teach it to anyone who'll listen, not just her.
Well that sums up a 'closed' and well controled system/environement again hehe
IMO it's the best system that you can do -unless- being a business of computer repair of course


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Originally Posted by Remoth View Post
I know there are problems there, but like I said, to me and 99% of the people I know, the problems arent big enough to spend the extra cash on a mac. People love the idea of getting a great computer for $900. If you really care about the little things in the OS, then a mac is for you.

I know they use workstation parts in the Mac pro, but so what? The server version of the i7 is only like $20 more than the i7 920, and the motherboards arent much more than good desktop boards, Ram is like $20 more as well. Just because they are classified as workstations does not justify the double price tag. especially when in terms of functionality, the mac pro case is severely outdated. I wouldnt call it a workstation if it were inferior to a $100 case from newegg.... And I know, I know, other OEMs have workstations similar, and thats why I will never buy an OEM as long as I can build my own now.

And I know its a laptop problem, I still dont like it, lol.
People don't actually want a 'great' computer (ie PC) for a low price... they were taught to think that they want a cheap windows PC with a fuckton of ram and nothing else... heck LOL SNAP FEATURE /ME WANTS comes from somewhere. Tell them that they could stack up windows like that since iirc win 3.1 and of course they will argue with you that it's not true, because the TV said it was new

If you would seat a few computer nubcakes in a room with people with as much "PC" as "Mac" knowledge and both party would explain all the pros and cons of owning both machines, I can nearly guaranty you that at least 3/4 if not more of the people will just buy a mac and be happy with it.

Again for the "omgz old hardware lolwut" case, remember: Apple build a computer around its OS and not the other way around. They give you already some pretty good hardware and some things that other company don't offer, ie fully buffered DIMM or the potential to "address" more ram with 32bit addressing, auto-clean function of the case, etc. If they don't think you need more than this, you don't. If you want more then pay for it. Welcome to the world of products vs solutions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perineum View Post
Much like my earlier example about the guy who got a replacement Mac for the one that died. He didn't have a Mac failure. He got a "free" laptop using a warranty he paid for. He'd score pretty high on the "customer satisfaction" reviews even though his Mac blew up.
I think you can't say a single bad thing about Apple Care if you know the full extent of what they do to make you a happy customer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synth View Post
[/I]I see it as a pro as well: whilst Windows Vista and 7 had launch issues because of drivers (like the nVidia ones for example), it was a non-issue for Mac OSX.
Well for the "less", it's simple: EFI. On one side you have people using a 8bit retarded chip and have driver problem and on the other, well you have -this-. No wonder that one works better than the other


Quote:
Originally Posted by Synth View Post
And I wouldn't say that Macs are "hardly" upgradable - they are just "not" upgradable. As soon as you pop open your Mini, you can bet your @ss you've broken retaining pins off the lid and your warranty is void. Is that a con? To an overclocker, modder, etc - yes. To a regular user? No.
Hardware guys are not even remotely targeted by Apple. ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfat View Post
Have you looked inside a mac pro case? Outdated? It is easier to work on than ANY other system out there.

pic
Exactly. It's a freakin well build workstation. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thund3rball View Post
Funny, maybe a month or 2 ago my G5 tower was throwing a fit due to overheating, So I thought I'd do some simple maintenance on it since none has ever really been done. When it came time to pull the HSF... oh wait, first there is this shroud that you have to practically break off to get to the HSF, lmao. Ya... really easy.

I do however LOVE the slide in HDD trays on my new Mac Tower. Hardly an Apple invention I'm sure but a nice touch.
Again as I said to about anyone saying that it's hard to be repaired... take the tower and give it to a professional Apple repair guy. He will fix your problem quickly and it won't cost you a bundle of time and money.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old May 19, 2010, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
Again as I said to about anyone saying that it's hard to be repaired... take the tower and give it to a professional Apple repair guy. He will fix your problem quickly and it won't cost you a bundle of time and money.
Wait, you're telling a forum of DIY computer people they have to take a computer to someone else to fix?
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old May 19, 2010, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by m1dget View Post



Again as I said to about anyone saying that it's hard to be repaired... take the tower and give it to a professional Apple repair guy. He will fix your problem quickly and it won't cost you a bundle of time and money.


Not too mention you completely contradicted yourself literally one sentence after another. Which is it... easy to work on or needs a pro Apple tech? Make up your mind.

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Originally Posted by SugarJ View Post
Wait, you're telling a forum of DIY computer people they have to take a computer to someone else to fix?
I second your after my laughing fit ends.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old May 19, 2010, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
...so a closed and controlled system is not bad afterall ?

The UAC was about as usefull and annoying as a popup of a duck asking you for your credit card number. imo again.

And -yes-, they deserve it and pay for being retarded which is perfect.
Even Mac mice run out of mouse pad room. Closed and controlled doesn't even help at this point. UAC still doesn't help because people are still MINDLESS DRONES who willingly install toolbars

Quote:
Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
If you would seat a few computer nubcakes in a room with people with as much "PC" as "Mac" knowledge and both party would explain all the pros and cons of owning both machines, I can nearly guaranty you that at least 3/4 if not more of the people will just buy a mac and be happy with it.
Nubcakes would take on the bias of the teacher. You can explain the Pros and Cons of each system in such a way to make the Apple be the apparent best choice.

Or it could be the other way around. As a teacher I could simply scoff and simply roll my eyes and say that Mac was "shit" and you'd have 3/4 going for the PC pretty quick.

Remember, these are n00bs, and I'm the educated teacher. What else are they going to think? Why do you think Apple advertisements work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
Again for the "omgz old hardware lolwut" case, remember: Apple build a computer around its OS and not the other way around. They give you already some pretty good hardware and some things that other company don't offer, ie fully buffered DIMM or the potential to "address" more ram with 32bit addressing, auto-clean function of the case, etc. If they don't think you need more than this, you don't. If you want more then pay for it. Welcome to the world of products vs solutions.

I'm sorry, but building the OS around the computer or computer around the OS is all crap.

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Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
I think you can't say a single bad thing about Apple Care if you know the full extent of what they do to make you a happy customer.
Dell has good onsite warranty too, if you pay for it. However, lots of people have been screwed by Apple as well, like the "yellow" 27" monitor, for instance.

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Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
Well for the "less", it's simple: EFI. On one side you have people using a 8bit retarded chip and have driver problem and on the other, well you have -this-. No wonder that one works better than the other
Which, btw, was made by Intel in the mid 1990s.

Yeah, when Mac users were bestowing the virtues of PPC processors and the merits of Altivec and simultaneously vilifying everything Intel did Intel was laboriously working of EFI with HP.

Now, if I want to, I can upgrade my motherboard's BIOS to use EFI. But I don't. Do you know why? Because no matter what you say about my existing BIOS, it works. And that's the only reason we haven't all changed.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old May 20, 2010, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by SugarJ View Post
Wait, you're telling a forum of DIY computer people they have to take a computer to someone else to fix?
Come on... if the guy has trouble fixing his Mac maybe simply because he's not used to it or by incompetence, well you go to the professional instead of screwing around in it risking to kill something in the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thund3rball View Post


Not too mention you completely contradicted yourself literally one sentence after another. Which is it... easy to work on or needs a pro Apple tech? Make up your mind.



I second your after my laughing fit ends.
No I'm not contradicting myself with that one and yes it's easy to fix a Mac -if you know what you are doing-... which didn't look like your case.

If you don't like me saying that, well I can't do anything about it.


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Originally Posted by Perineum View Post
Or it could be the other way around. As a teacher I could simply scoff and simply roll my eyes and say that Mac was "shit" and you'd have 3/4 going for the PC pretty quick.

Remember, these are n00bs, and I'm the educated teacher. What else are they going to think? Why do you think Apple advertisements work?
I was saying if you had someone or a bunch of "pro" with no preference bias to one or the other computer explaining to beginners OSX vs Windows, well at the end when the session ends and everybody would be perfectly informed I'm sure that at least 3/4 of them would go for a Mac.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Perineum View Post
I'm sorry, but building the OS around the computer or computer around the OS is all crap.
No they are doing actually doing that. You will have to ask the question yourself to a dev if you don't believe me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Perineum View Post
Dell has good onsite warranty too, if you pay for it. However, lots of people have been screwed by Apple as well, like the "yellow" 27" monitor, for instance.
I was not aware of that problem. Though I'm sure about everyone who had that must have gotten a new one or at least the screen fixed + some kind of compensation for it.



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Originally Posted by Perineum View Post
Which, btw, was made by Intel in the mid 1990s.

Yeah, when Mac users were bestowing the virtues of PPC processors and the merits of Altivec and simultaneously vilifying everything Intel did Intel was laboriously working of EFI with HP.

Now, if I want to, I can upgrade my motherboard's BIOS to use EFI. But I don't. Do you know why? Because no matter what you say about my existing BIOS, it works. And that's the only reason we haven't all changed.
I understand and know that, though they are about the only company that actually implemented it -well- for it's consumer computers which is a step in a very good direction.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old May 20, 2010, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Thund3rball View Post
Funny, maybe a month or 2 ago my G5 tower was throwing a fit due to overheating, So I thought I'd do some simple maintenance on it since none has ever really been done. When it came time to pull the HSF... oh wait, first there is this shroud that you have to practically break off to get to the HSF, lmao. Ya... really easy.

I do however LOVE the slide in HDD trays on my new Mac Tower. Hardly an Apple invention I'm sure but a nice touch.
A G5 isn't a Mac Pro. The interior is a lot different.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old May 20, 2010, 03:02 AM
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I was saying if you had someone or a bunch of "pro" with no preference bias to one or the other computer explaining to beginners OSX vs Windows, well at the end when the session ends and everybody would be perfectly informed I'm sure that at least 3/4 of them would go for a Mac.
Well I'm glad that you're sure, but I'm certainly not of the same opinion.

Nothing else to really add here...

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Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
No they are doing actually doing that. You will have to ask the question yourself to a dev if you don't believe me.
Well, building an OS around a hardware platform is stupid. Hardware changes. Apple knows this. They went from Motorola 680x0 processors, to PPC, and now to evil Intel.

Unless of course you mean superficially, but I don't see how they do this any more than anyone else then.

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Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
I was not aware of that problem. Though I'm sure about everyone who had that must have gotten a new one or at least the screen fixed + some kind of compensation for it.
It was a big stink for a while. Apple said "yellow was the new white" and then eventually slowly started to fix it in the background while everyone was shit talking Apple in the media.

I'm not saying this is unique to Apple or anything, rather it's just that they are the same as everyone else.

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Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
I understand and know that, though they are about the only company that actually implemented it -well- for it's consumer computers which is a step in a very good direction.
To what advantage? When there is a need for it then you will see PCs with it, probably damn near overnight. Otherwise it's not worth the hassle yet. Existing BIOS really does work just fine. I really don't hear users complaining about it.

Most of the "average Joes" don't even know it's there.

Likewise if I ask the average Mac user "What is EFI and why does it help you" I'm *really* going to have some fun with the blank looks I get.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old May 20, 2010, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Synth View Post
Apple forum?
The avg. computer user who barely knows how to use their computer will know how to find an Apple forum? I know some people who are these types and they'd be hard pressed to find a PC forum to ask such questions.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old May 20, 2010, 09:47 AM
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Apple hosts their own forum, but the people using it are retards. I presume the Microsoft run forum is similar?
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