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  #41 (permalink)  
Old May 17, 2010, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Remoth View Post
Here is my stance on the subject: If someone comes to me asking what kind of mac they should get, I'll help them pick out the right Mac. If someone asks me what kind of "computer" they should get, most likely I will recommend a windows 7 machine.

My view is that the differences between the windows 7 and OSX are not big enough to make up the price difference. 99% of the people I know dont care if windows uses GDI, a registry, or whatever, as long as it works fine. And windows 7 has worked great. I actually only got back into the PC world about 6-8 months ago. not long after windows 7 came out. Before that, I was a hardcore Mac fanboy. I had an iMac, a Macbook pro, and a white Macbook. I still have my 17" macbook pro but am seriously considering selling it while it still has good value and maybe getting something either cheaper or a gaming laptop. I paid $2300 for the thing and am seriously regretting it...

Plus I don't really like the choices that apple offers. The cheapest tower is $2400 with mediocre hardware. The iMac forces you to buy what some people consider a $700 or $1000 display. Mac mini has no high-end choices. The laptops get really hot, not just CPU temp, but the case itself becomes really uncomfortable. I know other laptops do this too, its just something I've ended up hating with my Macbook pro. watching youtube videos scorches my lap....

Based on these problems, I know that I wont be getting another Mac in the foreseeable future. although, if they release OSX to be installed on any Pc, I would probably at least try a dual boot, even though I have no need for it.

and in the end, my answer is basically Yes, they are overpriced.
I agree that there is a huge hole in their desktop lineup. For computer w/o a display attached it jumps from a little pathetic C2D w/ integrated video to a quad core Xeon. Also it would be nice for them to offer a Core i7 system not jump straight up to the overpriced Xeon machine.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old May 17, 2010, 04:40 PM
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The SSD would be just a hardware enthusiast's superficial gift to himself wouldn't it? You know you don't need that
Hmmm, currently I use 2x500GB Seagate 7200.12's in RAID 0 for a decent speedy OS setup. 27" iMac offers you a 1TB drive, or 2TB drive, neither of which interest me for putting an operating system on, the space would be wasted. There's a reason I'll be using either a NAS or just plain file server for storage. A solid state drive is far from a superficial gift, there's thousands of users (Mac, PC AND *nix) who are exceedingly happy with using them; just because something is outside the box you think in, doesn't make it something that people don't need
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old May 17, 2010, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Neolithium_Wpg View Post
Hmmm, currently I use 2x500GB Seagate 7200.12's in RAID 0 for a decent speedy OS setup. 27" iMac offers you a 1TB drive, or 2TB drive, neither of which interest me for putting an operating system on, the space would be wasted. There's a reason I'll be using either a NAS or just plain file server for storage. A solid state drive is far from a superficial gift, there's thousands of users (Mac, PC AND *nix) who are exceedingly happy with using them; just because something is outside the box you think in, doesn't make it something that people don't need
I was just stating it as I thought. I don't see the need for that speed. I had a 4 disk raid0 setup back then and frankly didn't see a big difference for 'normal' use

Now I have what I would think to be a ATA33 drive speed on my main machine and I don't find it that slow so it must be just me
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old May 17, 2010, 06:26 PM
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i tought macs offered raid capabilities as well.

and whats with your system specs? self punishment? :)
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old May 17, 2010, 06:26 PM
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I have a little problem with what you are saying. Yes people might not care at all about how their OS works as long as it works, but I think you could agree that they shouldn't be -used- to it slowing down, having corrupted files and loosing their data on a yearly/monthly basis, getting virus and having to pay a high price very often for having it repaired.

Most of you will tell me that it's the user and all the usual things on that subject, but the problem -is- there.
My machines run 24/7 and none of them have ever had this problem. Nor my wife's. Nor my mothers and she's as n00b as it gets.

Now if you wanted to talk about Windows 98, that's a whole different story. My Windows 98SE install would just spontaneously crash and I'd spend my evening fixing it.

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People can't be careful and screw up their computer way too easily.

Give one person a Windows machine and another one a Mac, let them use it normally and you will see the windows machine coming back way faster than the OSX one for the pile of usual troubles.
The only reason that's going to happen is because of shit like toolbars / spyware / viruses, which has nothing to do with the OS other than the popularity of it.

Oh yeah, Ford cars suck because the people who drive them steer them into telephone poles.

Stupid Fords!
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old May 17, 2010, 06:45 PM
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I agree there is always a lot of fud. Windows guys and Mac guys have NO clue about the opposite products.
I get the distinct sense that you aren't counting yourself in this....

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Yes you can get a much cheaper computer from a windows company but I will NEVER buy my mom a windows PC as she is not tech savvy enough. ... [snip] ... She is the kind of person that calls customer service because she forgot to push the monitor power button(should have gotten her an iMac :p). Funny thing though the Apple genius couldn't figure out the problem till I can home and I just pushed the monitor power button lol.
Teaching a person how to use MacOS is no different than any version of Windows.... or AmigaOS, BeOS, or any form of linux using a GUI.

The GUI concepts are the same for all OS's. Learning where things are located is the only difference. To a n00b the concepts of the GUI are hard to master.

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My dad on the other hand owns his own business and needs windows because the programs he uses is not on Mac. So I built him a $700 computer monitor, keyboard, mouse, OS (thank you technet :) ) included. It is pretty fast as it also has a SSD in it. He doesn't use the internet much so has never had a virus and I never had to fix anything for him. While my mom still complains about something though it is always user error.
Well, according to some people your dad's machine should be falling apart by now. Why isn't it?! His lack of internet is a good start for computer longevity.

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Originally Posted by belgolas View Post
There is also this rumor that Mac lasts longer than a windows Machine. Well that is utterly false. If you look at some recent studies Apple has a failure rate similar to Sony laptops. While HP is the worst Dell surprisingly lasts just as long as Apple computers. There are some windows companies that last longer than Apple. Although Apple does have the highest customer satisfaction.
I've commented on that customer satisfaction thing before. Because of the type of users the Mac has it's going to take A LOT OF PROBLEMS before you'll get them negative about their Mac.

I know because I saw it with Amiga users, of which I am.

Mac users won't complain about lack of Flash.... they could have it and be very happy, but they don't. So obviously flash sucks.

PPC processor was so much better than "Intel shit" and they would go to great lengths to explain why. Now they are using an Intel processor that was complete shit. But now it's not. Where are the ALTIVEC arguers now?

I recently talked to a Mac guy who's Mac just blew up. Do you think he complained to me? Nope. He told me how AWESOME they were and how he got a NEW MAC using a warranty he paid for.

He acted like Steve Jobs gave it to him personally, and for free. There was no mention of "hardware failure". HE WAS ACTUALLY HAPPY TELLING ME THIS!

All the time he had the attitude that he "knew something" I didn't about computers cause he had a Mac. That's DAMN annoying.

It was the same in the Amiga world.

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Originally Posted by belgolas View Post
But you can't argue price because some prefer that OS over others. So you can't really argue that one is better than the other. With a Mac you have an awesome easy to use computer. You have the best computer for movie, and audio creation for the average Joe. Meanwhile with windows you can do everything the Mac can do but somethings just not as good or as easy.
What you are talking about doesn't have to do with the OS, but the software that runs on the OS.

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So this thread really has no purpose other than if you are a windows guy that doesn't need the features of the Mac OS then yes it is overpriced. But if you are a Mac guy that needs or wants those features than no it isn't overpriced at all.
Here we are....

The value of something depends entirely on who is looking at it. I wouldn't give you $5 for a Picasso painting but yet it's priceless.

My Amiga stuff is still worth more than a new Mac. Does that make it better?

No. Well maybe, but only if you want to run AmigaOS, right?
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old May 17, 2010, 07:36 PM
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Yes you can teach someone how to use Windows OS as I have done it. But it is much easier for a complete noob to learn OSX. There are a lot less problems software wise because it is a closed system. I don't have to argue with you that my mom for example has had almost no problems other than stupid ones on a Mac while when she was on a windows computer she would always be calling me for help every week. Sometimes more than once a week. So YES it IS easier and safer for a noob to use OSX.

About customer satisfaction. I am not sure why they have the highest but everyone that I know that owns one loves it so maybe that has to do something with it. There are also a lot of my friends who say they want one because their computer is slow sigh..... The general population just thinks they are better because of their add campaigns.....

I also don't know why some art that looks like it was drawn by a 2 year old sells for millions just because it was some great artist but if I drew the same thing would only get pennies. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old May 17, 2010, 08:28 PM
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The only reason that's going to happen is because of shit like toolbars / spyware / viruses, which has nothing to do with the OS other than the popularity of it.
My point. Easier to screw up. "Average" computer user is ****ing retarded and MS or any "pc" company don't 'care' about this fact. Apple does.

What's the few rules of thumb at Apple when they are about to sell you a computer? Educate the customer, answer their needs THEN sell a computer based on what they know about you.
If they come back for any reason after and have screwed up the machine somehow and are angry about it? Fix them first then fix the computer so it won't happen again.

Contrary to this, when you go in a "big surface" store, they don't give a damn about what you need and they just want to sell you the computer with the most GB of ram in it and use Windows as a pure marketing gimmick to hook you up on it.

The customer after has a trainwreck of trial and homebrew software inside the machine already slowing it down and basically can't do anything about it... else than of course ask the big store to get rid of it by getting their wallet butt raped again.

Then the inevitable free or cracked software hog kicks in the customer one week after when it wants to convert or edit some videos and the rinse wash repeat cycle of virus repairs and new hardware kicks in.

And I'm sure that your wife has a kind of supervision over what she is doing. I mean if she is doing anything stupid, you will let her know so you don't get in a brawl with the computer after to fix it yourself.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old May 17, 2010, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by belgolas View Post
Yes you can teach someone how to use Windows OS as I have done it. But it is much easier for a complete noob to learn OSX. There are a lot less problems software wise because it is a closed system. I don't have to argue with you that my mom for example has had almost no problems other than stupid ones on a Mac while when she was on a windows computer she would always be calling me for help every week. Sometimes more than once a week. So YES it IS easier and safer for a noob to use OSX.
Sorry, but I still can't agree with you. What's your definition of a "closed system"? My mom's build is a closed system too. The OS is Windows 7 and all the hardware is controlled by me. Nothing changes in that system. No drivers to update. In fact, she's not running a "PC", she's running a "PerineumPC". It's my design and I control what happens to it. It's as closed as any Mac.

Your mom has problems with the Mac and it's just "stupid ones", whereas someone equally inept with computers does something and it's "Window's fault". However, your last statement of it being safer, I will agree with. At this point it is safer to use a Mac because of it's smaller market share. Most malware is written for the PC because of it's larger market share.

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My point. Easier to screw up. "Average" computer user is ****ing retarded and MS or any "pc" company don't 'care' about this fact. Apple does.
I have to agree and disagree.

I agree with your statement about users. I *ACTUALLY* had to teach an older woman about picking up a mouse and moving it to the top of the mouse pad in order to move the mouse pointer further down. She had run out of mouse pad and couldn't get the cursor to the taskbar. I actually started to smile when I thought she was pulling my leg but quickly recovered when I realized she was dead serious.

I disagree about PC companies not caring. Microsoft bends over backwards to try and help out moronic users. I mean.... how many UAC style prompts do we have to endure now in order to be TOTALLY sure about installing "THIS_IS_A_VIRUS.EXE"? The browser blocks the download, which you override. Then when you double click on it you get another requester that is titled "OPEN FILE - SECURITY WARNING" which then tries to tell you about the dangers of the file type to which you can "open" or "cancel". Even after alllllllll that you'll get a UAC prompt that darkens and focuses the screen for the most ADHD ridden user, again, trying to warn them.

Don't you think these people deserve it sometimes?

I've seen people browsing on 19" monitors with 10 fking toolbars! It's worse than browsing from my phone as my phone has more actual screen space! It's not hard to turn them off either anymore!

MS gives out free antivirus, and made Windows Defender part of the OS.

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Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
What's the few rules of thumb at Apple when they are about to sell you a computer? Educate the customer, answer their needs THEN sell a computer based on what they know about you.
If they come back for any reason after and have screwed up the machine somehow and are angry about it? Fix them first then fix the computer so it won't happen again.
That's a good policy, I do that with my customers and teach them how to fix their own problems.

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Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
Contrary to this, when you go in a "big surface" store, they don't give a damn about what you need and they just want to sell you the computer with the most GB of ram in it and use Windows as a pure marketing gimmick to hook you up on it.
Well as far as that went, they typically sold you a PC with a blazing fast (for the time) processor bottlenecked by ridiculously low amounts of ram. But yeah. I know what you're saying.

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The customer after has a trainwreck of trial and homebrew software inside the machine already slowing it down and basically can't do anything about it... else than of course ask the big store to get rid of it by getting their wallet butt raped again.
This is something that Sony/HP/Dell, etc do that irritates me. Why put Norton TRIALS on people's machines with they could just put Microsoft Security Essentials for free? It works and wouldn't time out, and would be better for the customer overall.

So in this way I see your point. They care more about being an "advertisement" for Norton than what would be best for the consumer.

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And I'm sure that your wife has a kind of supervision over what she is doing. I mean if she is doing anything stupid, you will let her know so you don't get in a brawl with the computer after to fix it yourself.
No, not really. I've just taught her where to look, and fine tune her "Bull-shit-o-meter". When webbrowsing, I've taught her to look first where the link is going to take her before clicking. This is done by hovering the mouse over the link and then looking in the bottom left corner to see where it's going to go. Furthermore I've taught her about how domains on the net work. IE: paypal.com.security.ru is *not* from security.paypal.com.

She's gotten herself in a bit too deep but then had her "spidey sense" tingling, then asked me about it. She did stop before there was a problem though.

I *try* and teach it to anyone who'll listen, not just her.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old May 18, 2010, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
have a little problem with what you are saying. Yes people might not care at all about how their OS works as long as it works, but I think you could agree that they shouldn't be -used- to it slowing down, having corrupted files and loosing their data on a yearly/monthly basis, getting virus and having to pay a high price very often for having it repaired.
Most of you will tell me that it's the user and all the usual things on that subject, but the problem -is- there.

People can't be careful and screw up their computer way too easily.
Give one person a Windows machine and another one a Mac, let them use it normally and you will see the windows machine coming back way faster than the OSX one for the pile of usual troubles.
Sure Windows "works", but it could work so much better to prevent a lot of the usual trouble. Take svchost for example... the system could be so much safer if it was NOT an option for 'untrusted' program to run in, but no, it's optional
But I'm not going to start (again) on Windows multiple hundreds of 'core' problem

For the tower, you can't compare that with a normal desktop as it -not- one, it's a workstation. Compare it with other companies' workstation or server and you will see that the price is not that different afterall since it's built like a server.

For the temps problem... it's a laptop, get use to it ;)
I know there are problems there, but like I said, to me and 99% of the people I know, the problems arent big enough to spend the extra cash on a mac. People love the idea of getting a great computer for $900. If you really care about the little things in the OS, then a mac is for you.

I know they use workstation parts in the Mac pro, but so what? The server version of the i7 is only like $20 more than the i7 920, and the motherboards arent much more than good desktop boards, Ram is like $20 more as well. Just because they are classified as workstations does not justify the double price tag. especially when in terms of functionality, the mac pro case is severely outdated. I wouldnt call it a workstation if it were inferior to a $100 case from newegg.... And I know, I know, other OEMs have workstations similar, and thats why I will never buy an OEM as long as I can build my own now.

And I know its a laptop problem, I still dont like it, lol.
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