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  #51 (permalink)  
Old May 1, 2010, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake_HT View Post
I don't know why these arguments always show up. MS is better for the majority of the world, it shows in their MUCH larger market share. People want more value for their money, which is exactly what Apple is not.

I don't like Mac cause I can do more for less with my windows PC... I'm not a programmer, neither is like 99.99% of the world.. so how is that argument relevant to how good overall an operating system is?

Certain things are good for certain things. For a home/student PC/laptop at a good price, Apple just doesn't quite make sense. Which is why it is how it is.
The market is only driven by the marketing and nothing else. Just ask yourself how Vista actually managed to be sold even if it was one of the worst thing I personally have the "chance" to touch and even after all the bad reviews -still- kept selling and bloating the market? Ads and MS telling people that it is good and "trust us" by simply backing themselves with their imposing stature in the OS industry and nothing else.
Saying it's better by looking at the share just raises in me my good old economically inaccurate analogy stating that it's not because, let say, that 80% of the stuff sold around here is cheap poorly made stuff that it's actually the best, no, it's just cheap stuff that people jump on because they think it's a good deal, but it's far from being true. Sure in the OS departement you don't have a really big choice, but still MS has not the best to offer. (masters in economic don't quote me please :P)

Btw, OSX is about 1/4 to 1/10 of a normal windows cd... so the price/value of the OS, since we are talking about this, is way better with Apple on that.

More for less, I would have to disagree. You can do anything with OSX that you can do with Windows, and I will push it further by saying that you can do way more with OSX out of the box than with windows if you know your way around a BSD system.
The software running off it is different though as it is not part of the OS itself.

I know quite a lot of people when I went to college who had macs and didn't got in that much debt to get them... beside that what I found funny is that there were about 80% of the student in the class I attended who had those big 2000$ dell studio or 1500$ HP notebook, which are WAY more expensive than the basic macbook, which then again was a better laptop than the ones with the dell and hp laptop for about half the price.

I personally use a 100$ laptop with a custom freebsd running on it so I always laughed at those two groups
When I saw those people with the big laptop and I was booting faster than them with a machine about 1/5 of their speed with 1/4 of their memory and when I saw them using their visual studio or netbeans or whatever IDE and I had one terminal running vi and the other one a makefile for compiling and I was able to do my work faster than them it's there I realized that you just need to know -how- to use an OS and not rely on expensive hardware to cope with where the OS lacked.

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Originally Posted by Zero82z View Post
Support means if someone has a problem, they complain to you and you fix it. Microsoft did not support 16-bit software. They just left compatibility with it in their OS, because there is no reason to take it out if it works (why remove functionality? That's something Apple does, not Microsoft.). Just because something works doesn't mean it is supported. If you have a laptop that still works but is out of warranty, it's the same concept. It works and you can use it, but if something goes wrong, it's your problem, not the manufacturer's.

Why should he pay for something he should be able to fix himself? If I have a problem on my PC, I do some research and I figure out how to fix it. No reason why he should have to pay someone to fix a Mac rather than doing the same thing.
Support in that way is not meant to actively help someone, it is that you are still developing and have software/tools/libraries for what you are supporting. If the support for a certain type of hardware hasn't been dropped, well, it's still supported. The best example is Itanium: MS annouced recently that they would completely drop support for Itanium in the next few months/years iirc with their new release of windows server. So itanium will -not- be supported anymore, thus (I think it's the right work), it is -still- supported right now.

For your mom's mini (I think it was you but I'm getting tired), I meant it in the way that if you don't know how to fix it, let a professionnal do it. That's why I said that they exist for a reason. Those guys will troubleshoot it in a minute and tell you the exact problem and will have it fixed in no time.
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Last edited by m1dget; May 1, 2010 at 12:24 AM.
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Old May 1, 2010, 06:51 AM
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No it was me with my moms mini. I fixed it but if I brought it in to the "genius" bar I would had to have payed money because of no warranty. Keep in mind I am not some boob that you think I am. I repair computers what seems like daily for friends and family and am thinking of turning that into a career. Every friend/family member with a Windows or Mac has had either me or a technition repair their computer. I can tell you from personal experiance that it is far easier to repair a windows computer through all sorts of problems. Especially if it is hardware failure or you can't boot the OS.

Also I find it impossible that you could do things faster on a net book than a $2000 laptop. When did you go to school. By the possible sound of your age I find it hard to believe you could get a $100 laptop unless it was extremely used as laptops have been very expensive until recently.

Also I can tell you one feature that boggles my mind that OSX can't do is blueray.

Also don't rant on Microsoft for making bad early OSes without ranting on Apple as well. Yes Vista was horrible when it first launched but now it is fixed and almost as good as 7. Snow leopard was just as bad as Vista and in my mind worse when it first launched. My brother with his mac book pro lost a lot of his information when he upgraded to SL and he wasn't the only one. The Internet was full of people with problems. Loosing information is far worse than having a buggy OS. Thankfully there are back-ups. (place ad here for carbonite. I love it!)

As far as prices go you can get a Core i7, 6GB of DDR3 ram, 1920 x 1200 resolution, blueray drive, 15" led backlit screen, backlit keyboard, EAX 4.0, GTX360 Asus laptop for the same price as the 15" base mac book pro. And it cones with 3 year warranty for free if you sign the warranty card within 30days. Plus you get 1 year accidental damage warranty. Tell what Apple computer can compete with that?

NCIX.com - Buy ASUS G51JX-A1 Intel Core i7 720QM 6GB 500GB 15.6IN FHD GeForce GTS360M Windows 7 Premium Notebook - G51JX-A1 In Canada.

for $200 more you can have a 5870 in there with a blueray drive STILL cheaper than the 15" MacBook pro.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old May 1, 2010, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
The market is only driven by the marketing and nothing else.

Btw, OSX is about 1/4 to 1/10 of a normal windows cd... so the price/value of the OS, since we are talking about this, is way better with Apple on that.

More for less, I would have to disagree. You can do anything with OSX that you can do with Windows, and I will push it further by saying that you can do way more with OSX out of the box than with windows if you know your way around a BSD system.
The software running off it is different though as it is not part of the OS itself.

I know quite a lot of people when I went to college who had macs and didn't got in that much debt to get them... beside that what I found funny is that there were about 80% of the student in the class I attended who had those big 2000$ dell studio or 1500$ HP notebook, which are WAY more expensive than the basic macbook, which then again was a better laptop than the ones with the dell and hp laptop for about half the price.

I personally use a 100$ laptop with a custom freebsd running on it so I always laughed at those two groups
When I saw those people with the big laptop and I was booting faster than them with a machine about 1/5 of their speed with 1/4 of their memory and when I saw them using their visual studio or netbeans or whatever IDE and I had one terminal running vi and the other one a makefile for compiling and I was able to do my work faster than them it's there I realized that you just need to know -how- to use an OS and not rely on expensive hardware to cope with where the OS lacked.



Support in that way is not meant to actively help someone, it is that you are still developing and have software/tools/libraries for what you are supporting. If the support for a certain type of hardware hasn't been dropped, well, it's still supported. The best example is Itanium: MS annouced recently that they would completely drop support for Itanium in the next few months/years iirc with their new release of windows server. So itanium will -not- be supported anymore, thus (I think it's the right work), it is -still- supported right now.

For your mom's mini (I think it was you but I'm getting tired), I meant it in the way that if you don't know how to fix it, let a professionnal do it. That's why I said that they exist for a reason. Those guys will troubleshoot it in a minute and tell you the exact problem and will have it fixed in no time.
I call BS on the first part. IF marketing was the Alpha and the Omega....we would ALL be using Macs. Apples marketing is much better then MS....yet Apple is a fringe product with very small market share. Dont think because you as a home user dont like something that means other share your POV.

You cant compare a RETAIL MS OS cost to the cost if Apple's upgrade price and expect to be taken seriously. Sorry doesn't work that way. Apple loves pumping out small incremental changes and charging for them (whereas MS gives SP's for free). Via technet I have access to all MS OS's and get 10 copies of each. By your thinking MS is cheaper as it would only cost me about a buck per OS copy. See how you cant compare non similarly orientated software packaging prices?

As for college's. Do you mean the cost of the software? I know many kids of friends who are going to college (got that makes feel old) and can get a heck of a lot more computer for their money then a MAC. Mac's cost more. The reason is simple: while they may start out comparable....the Apple kit does NOT drop in price as time goes by. The day before it is replaced with the next model the unit basically will cost the same as the day it was released. Saying they are the same price otherwise is disingenuous to say the least. IF you did mean software....um yeah and??? ALL software is dirt cheap for college students. It is done that way to get them hooked on brand XYZ software so that they will continue to use it later on in life AND get their company's they work for the buy it.

As for comparing the bottom of the barrel Mac to a mid teir Apple. Yeah that sounds like a good comparison....not. Compare Apples to Apples or same to same (sorry for the pun) before saying Apple is cheaper. The reason most peeps use PCs and not Apples is they can get more for less. It sounds like you were in a multimedia stream in College, thus more Apples makes sense. While things are slowly changing, Apple is still seen as better for graphic artists. Its BS, but perception is important and goes back to the above on cheap software paying off. BUT if you polled ALL the peeps at a typical college the ratio would be in 8 to 2 for PC to apple.

Saying you can do more with OSX out of the box vs Windows if you know your way around....is funny. If you know your way around you will get the most out of ANY piece of equipment. There are plenty of things that BSD is good at and there is plenty of things that OSX are good at. BUT saying because you cant do as much on windows as you can w/ BSD is just funny.

As for bootup speed. Meh. Give me a command line interface and it will be up and running within a second or two of the system finishes post'ing. Doesn't mean you can get as much done with the computer or share with others IF both groups of peeps have the same knowledge and user skill level. You like BSD, good for you. Its a good OS when everything works. BUT when you printer, wireless card or other kit is not recognized and not supported....good luck getting it to work w/out rolling your own drivers.

In the real world there is two types of support: Active and inactive. Active means if you run into a problem they will look into it and try to fix it. Inactive means you are on your own. I know coming from an Apple POV and thinking about legacy apps is tough as after a couple years Apple will cut you off and make it INactive support...BUT on MS side they Actively support it for a LONG time. This is just another area Apple sucks in comparison to MS. That comes in handy when you are running a legacy app that the company had custom coded for them 15yrs ago and EXPECT it to work on their new hardware.

Try that with an Apple....oh right they dropped PPC support after a mere 5 years. Guess you'd have to tell your company the hundreds of thousands they spent on the software is now useless. I bet that would go over large.
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Last edited by AkG; May 1, 2010 at 07:48 AM.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old May 1, 2010, 09:32 AM
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agree with pretty much everything you said AkG.

although, technically, the old apps are supported, although only the OS X ones. The new stuff doesn't work on the PPC hardware, but the PPC stuff works on the new hardware (in general, there are a lot of exceptions). For example, I still use Office 2004 on my macbook.

and m1dget, don't kid yourself. Macs are, in no way, cheaper then PC's. I've got a Mac Pro, macbook, and a homebuild PC. The homebuild spanks the Mac Pro in terms of value. I paid about a $1000 for it. Where as my Mac Pro cost about 3x the price back when I got it. Macs give you OS X, and to some, that is worth the premium price. To others it would make no sense to pay that when they can get more value out of a PC. My Mac Pro isn't a gaming computer, it's used for video editing, gaming isn't its purpose. Your paying for server level hardware like Xeon CPU's and dual socket mobo's that give you no real gains in gaming. My homebuild spanks the 8 core Mac Pro in gaming, cuz no game really utilizes 8 cores. However, my Mac Pro spanks the homebuild in render times for video and audio, everything has its own purpose.

OS X is a great OS, but so is Windows 7, so to say that everyone should use OS X, and that it fits the needs of everyone, is pretty naive.
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Old May 1, 2010, 09:33 AM
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The trend I typically see at my place of work when people buy Macs is the following:

Stage 1. Thinking of buying a Mac or PC, and sometimes ask me for advice. I give them the positive and negatives, one of which is Mac compatibility with the software at our work. I tell them thats a big negative. My warnings are sometimes heeded, but when a person gets to the stage that they are comparing, they are often drawn in to the 'Macs are easy and no viruses'. For the most part, the users asking me for advice are not all that computer savvy, and are attracted to the Apple 'it just works' marketing.

Other people simply inform me after the purchase.

Stage 2. Happy with the new purchase for a few months. Will bring in the Mac to show me how great it is. At this point, I am in 'polite mode,' as the person bought an expensive piece of equipment already, and are happy with it. Who am I to rain on their parade now, as the laptop is already on the Visa?

Person then asks me if I am sure that our software needed at work will not work on their Mac, as they have often read in forums like this one that 'Macs can do everything a PC does.' I tell them that if they do some research, I am sure its possible to get our software working. They ask me to point them in the proper direction, and I tell them to use Google as I don't have the money to purchase a Mac just so that I can support a dozen or so users out of 1600.

Stage 3. Person comes back to me now months later upset or disappointed that they need to stay at work longer than other people as our software does not work on their home Macs. 'Why can't we buy similar or the Mac version?' they plead. I tell them that it does not make economic sense to make the investments in money, resources, and personnel required to support the small Mac user base. I remind them that I warned them of this fact prior to their purchase, and I feel sorry about their situation. Most of the time, they understand, but sometimes I will get the 'You guys need to go outside the norm' etc etc. I tell them that I am responsible for supporting 1600+ users, and our 'head office' over 30,000 users, and there is no way that we can have different infrastructures for a small user base.

I also offer workshops to help our users do additional tasks and such related to their job. Every once in a while, I will get the Mac user who asks me 'how do I do this on a Mac' and I tell them that they would have to do their own research. I have had Mac users complain to me that I am leaving them out. I don't have to offer these workshops, but I like to, and I respond to them that I don't own a Mac and cannot therefore accommodate their needs, especially if they are a very small minority of the user base.

Stage 4. Person either upgrades their old PC so they can run our software and do their jobs at home, or they buy a PC to run alongside their Mac.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old May 1, 2010, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
The market is only driven by the marketing and nothing else. Just ask yourself how Vista actually managed to be sold even if it was one of the worst thing I personally have the "chance" to touch and even after all the bad reviews -still- kept selling and bloating the market?
Because you're completely wrong and Vista was never anywhere near as bad of an OS as it was made out to be, especially after SP1. In fact, even from day 1 it was a much better OS than XP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
Support in that way is not meant to actively help someone, it is that you are still developing and have software/tools/libraries for what you are supporting. If the support for a certain type of hardware hasn't been dropped, well, it's still supported. The best example is Itanium: MS annouced recently that they would completely drop support for Itanium in the next few months/years iirc with their new release of windows server. So itanium will -not- be supported anymore, thus (I think it's the right work), it is -still- supported right now.
Again, you're confusing support and compatibility. With your example, Itanium is actually being actively supported by Microsoft, meaning if someone is trying to install Windows Server on an Itanium machine, Microsoft will help them get it done. When they drop support for Itanium, they will no longer do that. They might also be dropping Itanium compatibility in future Windows Server releases, but the two are not necessarily linked.
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Old May 1, 2010, 03:37 PM
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No it was me with my moms mini. I fixed it but if I brought it in to the "genius" bar I would had to have payed money because of no warranty. Keep in mind I am not some boob that you think I am. I repair computers what seems like daily for friends and family and am thinking of turning that into a career. Every friend/family member with a Windows or Mac has had either me or a technition repair their computer. I can tell you from personal experiance that it is far easier to repair a windows computer through all sorts of problems. Especially if it is hardware failure or you can't boot the OS.

Also I find it impossible that you could do things faster on a net book than a $2000 laptop. When did you go to school. By the possible sound of your age I find it hard to believe you could get a $100 laptop unless it was extremely used as laptops have been very expensive until recently.

Also I can tell you one feature that boggles my mind that OSX can't do is blueray.

Also don't rant on Microsoft for making bad early OSes without ranting on Apple as well. Yes Vista was horrible when it first launched but now it is fixed and almost as good as 7. Snow leopard was just as bad as Vista and in my mind worse when it first launched. My brother with his mac book pro lost a lot of his information when he upgraded to SL and he wasn't the only one. The Internet was full of people with problems. Loosing information is far worse than having a buggy OS. Thankfully there are back-ups. (place ad here for carbonite. I love it!)

As far as prices go you can get a Core i7, 6GB of DDR3 ram, 1920 x 1200 resolution, blueray drive, 15" led backlit screen, backlit keyboard, EAX 4.0, GTX360 Asus laptop for the same price as the 15" base mac book pro. And it cones with 3 year warranty for free if you sign the warranty card within 30days. Plus you get 1 year accidental damage warranty. Tell what Apple computer can compete with that?

NCIX.com - Buy ASUS G51JX-A1 Intel Core i7 720QM 6GB 500GB 15.6IN FHD GeForce GTS360M Windows 7 Premium Notebook - G51JX-A1 In Canada.

for $200 more you can have a 5870 in there with a blueray drive STILL cheaper than the 15" MacBook pro.
1) I understand that you maybe the family techie (like most of us are/were until we got fed up -_-), but I can tell you from experience having a few friends who had macs for the past 5-10 years that somebody who knows the hardware and software of Apple can debug and troubleshoot in a fraction of the time it would take the rest of us. At the college I went we had a mini and an old imac and whenever we had trouble we always waited for the same guy because he knew what he was doing.
I mean it's braindead to repair a "PC", but some macs are a pain to repair when you are not used to them.

2) It's not a netbook, it's a P3 notebook I bought used from another forum member about 8 months ago. And yes I could do about anything faster than anybody in my classes since I had a simple window manager and a crap load of terminal opened up to do the actual work. When you have a stripped kernel + only few daemons running in the background + xorg on top, it takes no time to boot and since you still have plenty of memory to go and everything running on the computer is lightweight (terminals mostly), it's way faster than anything they could have used.

3) OSX could technically do bluray, though the hardware doesn't so you can't run them. I might be totally wrong, but could it work if you swapped the drive with a blueray? (I don't really care about media else than floppies and cds so I never thought of it o.O)

4) Snow leopard compared to vista at launch Ouchie... need more examples.
And for your brother's bug, do you mean the infamous bug where iirc if you deleted the guest account (or something like that) you potentially lost all the data in your "documents" ?

5) Again, you are an hardware guy. Apple doesn't even remotely seek you as a potential customer. They have -models- with plenty of cpu power and some with plenty of gpu power that fits -their clients needs-, not yours personally.
Apple normal clientele is either hipsters, artists, movie/picture editors computer newbies and of course developers... not gamers, not hardware guys, not OCer, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AkG View Post
I call BS on the first part. IF marketing was the Alpha and the Omega....we would ALL be using Macs. Apples marketing is much better then MS....yet Apple is a fringe product with very small market share. Dont think because you as a home user dont like something that means other share your POV.

You cant compare a RETAIL MS OS cost to the cost if Apple's upgrade price and expect to be taken seriously. Sorry doesn't work that way. Apple loves pumping out small incremental changes and charging for them (whereas MS gives SP's for free). Via technet I have access to all MS OS's and get 10 copies of each. By your thinking MS is cheaper as it would only cost me about a buck per OS copy. See how you cant compare non similarly orientated software packaging prices?

As for college's. Do you mean the cost of the software? I know many kids of friends who are going to college (got that makes feel old) and can get a heck of a lot more computer for their money then a MAC. Mac's cost more. The reason is simple: while they may start out comparable....the Apple kit does NOT drop in price as time goes by. The day before it is replaced with the next model the unit basically will cost the same as the day it was released. Saying they are the same price otherwise is disingenuous to say the least. IF you did mean software....um yeah and??? ALL software is dirt cheap for college students. It is done that way to get them hooked on brand XYZ software so that they will continue to use it later on in life AND get their company's they work for the buy it.

As for comparing the bottom of the barrel Mac to a mid teir Apple. Yeah that sounds like a good comparison....not. Compare Apples to Apples or same to same (sorry for the pun) before saying Apple is cheaper. The reason most peeps use PCs and not Apples is they can get more for less. It sounds like you were in a multimedia stream in College, thus more Apples makes sense. While things are slowly changing, Apple is still seen as better for graphic artists. Its BS, but perception is important and goes back to the above on cheap software paying off. BUT if you polled ALL the peeps at a typical college the ratio would be in 8 to 2 for PC to apple.

Saying you can do more with OSX out of the box vs Windows if you know your way around....is funny. If you know your way around you will get the most out of ANY piece of equipment. There are plenty of things that BSD is good at and there is plenty of things that OSX are good at. BUT saying because you cant do as much on windows as you can w/ BSD is just funny.

As for bootup speed. Meh. Give me a command line interface and it will be up and running within a second or two of the system finishes post'ing. Doesn't mean you can get as much done with the computer or share with others IF both groups of peeps have the same knowledge and user skill level. You like BSD, good for you. Its a good OS when everything works. BUT when you printer, wireless card or other kit is not recognized and not supported....good luck getting it to work w/out rolling your own drivers.

In the real world there is two types of support: Active and inactive. Active means if you run into a problem they will look into it and try to fix it. Inactive means you are on your own. I know coming from an Apple POV and thinking about legacy apps is tough as after a couple years Apple will cut you off and make it INactive support...BUT on MS side they Actively support it for a LONG time. This is just another area Apple sucks in comparison to MS. That comes in handy when you are running a legacy app that the company had custom coded for them 15yrs ago and EXPECT it to work on their new hardware.

Try that with an Apple....oh right they dropped PPC support after a mere 5 years. Guess you'd have to tell your company the hundreds of thousands they spent on the software is now useless. I bet that would go over large.
1) MS has about anybody's trust we can't deny that, even after all the software caused bluescreen and problems. I don't have to tell you that they rely heavily on their reputation on being the ""first"" (notice the " " x 2) in the industry to provide ""professionnal"" OS (notice again the " " x 2) to the mass. They were there so long that people think that it's normal that computer screw up like that. People are easy to control and manipulate let's not forget that. They also even sometimes don't understand when I tell them that the grass is way greener in the *nix field and that screw ups like that nearly don't exist if you use the good software.

2) I'm not including technet in there as it is not opened to the mass. Well the mass don't know about it and wouldn't know how to get near free stuff from there. I compared retail price for retail price. Include upgrades if you want in there. My claim is still true.
For the SP, that's the awesome compressed ball of MS epic screw ups. A few hundred of MB each time. I think you can't really deny that. Release to early -> let consumer try out and send bug reports -> read comments -> finish the work they didn't have time to -> polish some things here and there -> fix a lot of bugs they didn't have time to -> roll out SP and give people a 'good' feeling that MS gives them quality software and improve it constantly to make their money worth.

3) I don't mean software, I mean what the average buyer usually buys for college. As I said, I remember about 80-90% of people with laptops around had those 1.5 - 2k$ ones and somehow laughed at a 1k$ macbook for being expensive (?)
And -no- I wasn't in some rich kid college, I was at a simple montreal college with other middle class kids.

4) No I wasn't in multimedia in college, I was in computer programming and even though anything over 500$ for that class was WAY overkill, people somehow still bought 1-2K$ laptops. We we a few ones with either no laptop and doing all "a la mitaine" or with a used one that we payed < 200$.
Though for the multimedia being better with Apple, we are talking about the software running on that platform and not the OS itself. For software it would be true, but that could have gone both ways as with about anything in software better on one platform.
For the ratio of 1 / 4 I agree. There is not that much people with Apple computer running around in colleges... just really expensive HP or Dell's o.O

5) Since I'm a BSD guy and know quite well my way around a 'typical' BSD OS, I will always say that you can do more with the OS than with a normal Windows computer. Most of the things will not be what your typical user will do, but from a programmer's perspective that has no interest -what so ever- in .NET crap or Java (even if it can 'run' on it) and a network guy, you can do -way- more and better with a *BSD computer.

6) For somebody who knows a linux distro or a BSD one the printers, networking interfaces, GUI, etc are far from a problem. Getting that to work together is nearly a second nature. Rolling out my own driver I had to once, but it's not really an everyday chore.

7) For the support, I stick with what I said. We are not talking about the same support. Talking about the support you are talking about, well again having support for older stuff is not at all in their "new" business model and train of thoughts -since they are a hardware company before anything-.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SneakySnake View Post
agree with pretty much everything you said AkG.

although, technically, the old apps are supported, although only the OS X ones. The new stuff doesn't work on the PPC hardware, but the PPC stuff works on the new hardware (in general, there are a lot of exceptions). For example, I still use Office 2004 on my macbook.

and m1dget, don't kid yourself. Macs are, in no way, cheaper then PC's. I've got a Mac Pro, macbook, and a homebuild PC. The homebuild spanks the Mac Pro in terms of value. I paid about a $1000 for it. Where as my Mac Pro cost about 3x the price back when I got it. Macs give you OS X, and to some, that is worth the premium price. To others it would make no sense to pay that when they can get more value out of a PC. My Mac Pro isn't a gaming computer, it's used for video editing, gaming isn't its purpose. Your paying for server level hardware like Xeon CPU's and dual socket mobo's that give you no real gains in gaming. My homebuild spanks the 8 core Mac Pro in gaming, cuz no game really utilizes 8 cores. However, my Mac Pro spanks the homebuild in render times for video and audio, everything has its own purpose.

OS X is a great OS, but so is Windows 7, so to say that everyone should use OS X, and that it fits the needs of everyone, is pretty naive.
I am not even remotely trying to tell you that Macs are cheaper. I don't own one and don't plan to until I get fed up to work with FreeBSD and NetBSD... which won't probably never happen. I love those
And again I'm not saying that everyone should use OSX, as I am not even myself using it (read one line above).
It's just, IMO, a way better OS for everyday use and for people who like unix OS. Simple, fast, easy to use, "shiny" and if you are willing to spend a bit more on the hardware to get it, usually you don't regret it (unless you are one of those baby boomers who can't tolerate change).

Quote:
Originally Posted by chriskwarren View Post
The trend I typically see at my place of work when people buy Macs is the following:

Stage 1. Thinking of buying a Mac or PC, and sometimes ask me for advice. I give them the positive and negatives, one of which is Mac compatibility with the software at our work. I tell them thats a big negative. My warnings are sometimes heeded, but when a person gets to the stage that they are comparing, they are often drawn in to the 'Macs are easy and no viruses'. For the most part, the users asking me for advice are not all that computer savvy, and are attracted to the Apple 'it just works' marketing.

Other people simply inform me after the purchase.

Stage 2. Happy with the new purchase for a few months. Will bring in the Mac to show me how great it is. At this point, I am in 'polite mode,' as the person bought an expensive piece of equipment already, and are happy with it. Who am I to rain on their parade now, as the laptop is already on the Visa?

Person then asks me if I am sure that our software needed at work will not work on their Mac, as they have often read in forums like this one that 'Macs can do everything a PC does.' I tell them that if they do some research, I am sure its possible to get our software working. They ask me to point them in the proper direction, and I tell them to use Google as I don't have the money to purchase a Mac just so that I can support a dozen or so users out of 1600.

Stage 3. Person comes back to me now months later upset or disappointed that they need to stay at work longer than other people as our software does not work on their home Macs. 'Why can't we buy similar or the Mac version?' they plead. I tell them that it does not make economic sense to make the investments in money, resources, and personnel required to support the small Mac user base. I remind them that I warned them of this fact prior to their purchase, and I feel sorry about their situation. Most of the time, they understand, but sometimes I will get the 'You guys need to go outside the norm' etc etc. I tell them that I am responsible for supporting 1600+ users, and our 'head office' over 30,000 users, and there is no way that we can have different infrastructures for a small user base.

I also offer workshops to help our users do additional tasks and such related to their job. Every once in a while, I will get the Mac user who asks me 'how do I do this on a Mac' and I tell them that they would have to do their own research. I have had Mac users complain to me that I am leaving them out. I don't have to offer these workshops, but I like to, and I respond to them that I don't own a Mac and cannot therefore accommodate their needs, especially if they are a very small minority of the user base.

Stage 4. Person either upgrades their old PC so they can run our software and do their jobs at home, or they buy a PC to run alongside their Mac.
Well you are telling the tales of either ignorant people caused by short term memory loss or simple stupid people that still bought a Mac knowing that you told them in point #1 to nearly fear software incompatibility.
Heck if they don't listen I would not even feel sorry for them


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero82z View Post
Because you're completely wrong and Vista was never anywhere near as bad of an OS as it was made out to be, especially after SP1. In fact, even from day 1 it was a much better OS than XP.

Again, you're confusing support and compatibility. With your example, Itanium is actually being actively supported by Microsoft, meaning if someone is trying to install Windows Server on an Itanium machine, Microsoft will help them get it done. When they drop support for Itanium, they will no longer do that. They might also be dropping Itanium compatibility in future Windows Server releases, but the two are not necessarily linked.
For vista not being "that" bad with SP*, read above what I said about SP being. From day one being a better OS than XP? I will let other people comment on that as I find that claim completely ridiculous

I think we really have a problem understading each other with the word 'support'. I mean hardware support.
Hardware support is what I am (tired) of explaining myself to you about in the past few posts. If your darn optimised application still runs on Itanium and MS drops the hardware support, you are in trouble. You will have to recompile and optimise for another architecture/hardware platform if you want to keep using it on newer OS release.
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Last edited by m1dget; May 1, 2010 at 03:46 PM.
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Old May 1, 2010, 04:18 PM
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Technet is open to anyone with an internet connection. Nothing special is needed besides a credit card. By your math Apple sells their full retail NON-UPGRADE copies for about 15 bucks as you can get Win 7 for about 150 (last I heard the last OSX UPGRADE version was 30 bucks0. I think you need to take some more math classes, unless that is apple math. Sp1 Sp 2 and Sp 3 for XP were free...yet Apple charges for their service packs. Even if an apple OS went for 20 bucks...the TCO of MS is lower when you add up all those 20 buck upgrades over the past decade. You certainly CANT use a 10 yr old OS on a new Apple....PPC and all that. /whistle

Id like to know who you hung out with in College as for every student with a 2k laptop there is PLENTY more with cheaper ones (thus the cliche "poor student"). Maybe it is a MTL thing, who knows. As the old saying goes YMMV on that one.

I bet you felt really superior to using nothing more than stripped down system compared to the others. I bet many peeps laughed at you behind your back too. As that is probably one of the best examples of elitist *nix snobbery I have heard. At the end of the day your super fast do one thing only system was good for only that one thing, whereas those "fools" could take it home, use it talk to friends via VOIP, watch movies and {gasp} play games! Those fools! What were they thinking! By your logic anyone who uses their system for more then one thing is a fool with a poor performing tool....yet in the same breath you dis them for paying to much for their systems that could do more then yours. Must be more of that apple math at work their....or envy.

I said Nix wasn't ready for prime time....do you really think grandma or joe sixpack are going to roll their own drivers? Another great example of *Nix elitist snobbery, as you are saying if they cant do that then they are too stupid to be using a computer.

Honestly, if you are an example of this generations Nix convert....MS has nothing to worry about as you are your own worst enemy. This is coming from someone who used UNIX in a business enviro for years. I like *Nix as it is pretty darn good for some things, but by your admission it has more hassle factor involved.

Zero82z's claim is far less ridiculous then what comes out of Steve Jobs mouth on a regular basis. BUT I think his reality distortion field needs new batteries as it is wearing thin on many of his (ex)converts.
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Old May 1, 2010, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AkG View Post
Technet is open to anyone with an internet connection. Nothing special is needed besides a credit card. By your math Apple sells their full retail NON-UPGRADE copies for about 15 bucks as you can get Win 7 for about 150 (last I heard the last OSX UPGRADE version was 30 bucks0. I think you need to take some more math classes, unless that is apple math. Sp1 Sp 2 and Sp 3 for XP were free...yet Apple charges for their service packs. Even if an apple OS went for 20 bucks...the TCO of MS is lower when you add up all those 20 buck upgrades over the past decade. You certainly CANT use a 10 yr old OS on a new Apple....PPC and all that. /whistle

Id like to know who you hung out with in College as for every student with a 2k laptop there is PLENTY more with cheaper ones (thus the cliche "poor student"). Maybe it is a MTL thing, who knows. As the old saying goes YMMV on that one.

I bet you felt really superior to using nothing more than stripped down system compared to the others. I bet many peeps laughed at you behind your back too. As that is probably one of the best examples of elitist *nix snobbery I have heard. At the end of the day your super fast do one thing only system was good for only that one thing, whereas those "fools" could take it home, use it talk to friends via VOIP, watch movies and {gasp} play games! Those fools! What were they thinking! By your logic anyone who uses their system for more then one thing is a fool with a poor performing tool....yet in the same breath you dis them for paying to much for their systems that could do more then yours. Must be more of that apple math at work their....or envy.

I said Nix wasn't ready for prime time....do you really think grandma or joe sixpack are going to roll their own drivers? Another great example of *Nix elitist snobbery, as you are saying if they cant do that then they are too stupid to be using a computer.

Honestly, if you are an example of this generations Nix convert....MS has nothing to worry about as you are your own worst enemy. This is coming from someone who used UNIX in a business enviro for years. I like *Nix as it is pretty darn good for some things, but by your admission it has more hassle factor involved.

Zero82z's claim is far less ridiculous then what comes out of Steve Jobs mouth on a regular basis. BUT I think his reality distortion field needs new batteries as it is wearing thin on many of his (ex)converts.
Technet sure is 'open' to anyone, but seriously, ask any typical computer users and no one knows about it.

Math class for me or reading glasses for you? "...OSX is about 1/4 to 1/10 of a normal windows cd..." (quoted myself from above)

Sure you can't use a 10 years old OS with a newer mac... but why would you since OSX comes with a newer mac? ;)

For the 2k$ laptop it's simple... it was kind of a scam that a lot of hardware oriented computer guys fell for. It's not that they were not that bright, it's just that mommy & daddy gave them some money because the college assured them that the 2k$ Studio was the best thing that will last them through college and blablazzzZZ (market is easy to manipulate eh?). I'm glad I didn't fell for that. For the few other ones with 1.5$ HP laptops, well I would guess that they just didn't know better (?)
Also as with any networking/programming classes, you always have the 17 yrs old gamer nuisance who had to get "da shit" to play the latest game in class, thus costing him THAT much money for nothing.
There's always a logical explanation behing everything

Why would I feel superior and why are you insulting me? Sure people were laughing at me in my back. Heck I was a lil metalhead *nix fan using a 100$ computer running freebsd with terminals and they were a bunch of "rich looking"/cool kids gamers using those huge 2k$ laptops with Vista on them and full of games. But again they were the ones not able to make a a damn character print on a terminal, even less knowing what a kernel -is- in the first place.
Though -somehow- still laughed at me. So sure they were laughing at him but from pure and simple ignorance.
And you really seem to underestimate me: why the -hell- would I get and use a laptop if it would not satisfy my needs perfectly? I barely game anymore, I don't watch movies, I don't go on voip (even if we have our server running) and I work about 80 hours a week coding on my project/job and if you read a page before my main computer is a 500Mhz machine. If they need a 2k$ laptop to satisfy themselves, well let that be it, I don't need one.
A computer should be a tool that would allow you to do what -you want- on it, not have it for looks or by a small materialistic impulsion to get a 2k$ monster to, eh, have a 2k$ piece of useless equipement.

To stupid to be using a computer? No. Not knowing better (i'm staying polite) and buy expensive hardware and useless expensive piece of software? Yes.

(free) Unix being a bit more complicated to configure for the ones used to use it? Sure, that's what happens when you don't have a company paid to debug and configure it at your place. But again, we like screwing around with it. Unix being a ***** for the typical guy? Sure, I'm never going to deny that.

For your last statement, I have no clue whatsoever you meant o.O

EDIT: neverming this ^, I read it 5 times and finally understood the sarcasm
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Last edited by m1dget; May 1, 2010 at 05:03 PM.
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Old May 1, 2010, 05:39 PM
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How much have you used OS X ?
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