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Old April 30, 2010, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
Putting Microsoft and innovation in the same sentence is an oxymoron. It's like their product "Microsoft Works", it just don't make any sense.

IE I have only two thing to say: pure crap and anti-trust lawsuit

a) Apple's hardware is not expensive, the machine itself is. You don't buy parts but a package, like a car (I'm not starting a debate on that... see other thread for my explanation)

b) code for a smaller group? That makes -no- but --no-- sense at all. You seriously think that coding every damn application/kernel/driver(in the past)/GUI/etc would be easier because they don't have a 'lot' of computers? PURE non-sense. You seriously got to get a clue from the nearest programmer to you man

c)MS on so much hardware? *facepalm* -This- is a lot of hardware Hardware Supported by NetBSD, not Windows or any crap they attempted at supporting. Just install XP or about any OS they did and see what they support out of the box (I smell yellow exclamation mark from here ).
And if I can push a bit more, they are one of the reason we are about 5-10 years behind in 'computers'. Heck we still have a (*@#&$ 8 BIT CHIP IN OUR COMPUTER IN 2010 (the bios). WTF! And x86-64 makers still have to support 32 and 16 bits instruction, which should have died in the 90s and the mid 80s respectively. low level programmers still have to cope with a zillion of opcodes and it's a real bitch to work with considering we have awesome complex architecture like sparc64 with simple instructions.

d) unix not ready for prime time? dude I think you underestimate the number of *nix server running the "internet" and even the number of desktops running any version of it.

e) I understood half of what you said for GUI, but what is the goal of a GUI? Simplicity. Who wins in that category? Simple: Aqua. You may think it's too fisher price or I don't know, but that just means you never tried it for more than a few seconds or had somebody who didn't know much about it like you who showed you around. As I always say... Aqua power user > windows power user. You can do so much more quickly with Aqua than you can with windows and for some obvious reasons (multiple desktops for example) and some technical reason (window pane's threads handling for an example).
And seriously you can't compare under the hood for both. Windows is a real damn cluster**** of bad code freezing and leaving you hopeless to debug while on the other hand if you ask any programmer to describe what is going on under aqua, they will cry of joy explaning to you why it's -so- much better than windows (as in windows the gui).
And if you are takling about under the hood as in the kernel, I have only -one- lil thing to say about it: BSD vs, eh, windows. 'nuff said.


To conclude dare to take OSX out of his "narrow" window and be surprised my friend. You can do absolutely anything with this lil piece of marvel... again ask any programmer who had the chance to work on OSX (kernel programmer if you can) and let them tell you exactly why OSX > Windows.
The reason it doesnt make any sense to you m1dget is the fact you are not a programmer. In the real world on large scale projects different groups are responsible for different parts. NO ONE does it all anymore. The broader the scope the more groups are involved the worse things get. Where there is a LIMITED amount of hardware options on Apples this means fewer groups interacting. The more groups that interact....the more kuldges have to be implemented to get it all to work.

MS on the other hand has to work on the majority of equipment that is out there now AND support 20yr old kit. Apple has the luxury of telling their lemmings to upgrade if they dont like it if new the shiny version breaks past compatibility. Windows cant do that and keep the business spectrum happy. Like I said Apple doesnt have this problem as they dont have a business presence outside of some VERY niche areas to alienate.

As for nix and the internet...when was the last time you saw someone use a server for home use...or anything besides its niche area? Nix is great for somethings, but personal computers aint one of them. This is changing SLOWLY but their is a very elitist attitude associated with that niche. You dont here HWC or other PC enthusiasts telling peeps to RTFM, yet that is a very common response in the nix world.

No the idea behind the GUI interface is not simplicity it is EFFICIENCY. Pretty pictures are simple...but not necessarily efficient at getting work done. And I think "apple poweruser" is an oxymoron. What is there to power? You have a walled garden to play in and cant get out of it.

As for BSD and Apple and the kernel. You are dreaming if you think Apple is open source. At least MS isnt as two faced about it as Apple. Apples is a closed source community and like it that way. They have no problems taking ideas from the open source community but are not exactly free with giving.

As for lots of supported hardware. Please, "lots" and MOST are two different things all together. Saying otherwise is foolish and shows your lack of understanding. There are still MANY pieces of kit and models therein that simply wont work in nix. Once again its getting better...but not ready for prime time yet.

And I know lots of programmers (I once was one myself) that hate Apple for their fascist rules and wont touch it w/ a 10 ft pole. Lots of peeps dont like working on Apple OS. There are many examples of Apple seeing a small apple developer, liking his product, watching it get polished and then rolling it into the next upgrade of the OS and telling the developer to FOAD. Widgets was a great example of that.

As for the tired old "windoze freezes". Puhleeze that was over a decade ago. Stop beating a dead horse. XP was very stable. Win 7 is also very stable. Apple Mac OS X also does crash to you know.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old April 30, 2010, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Zero82z View Post
They didn't drop it in Windows 7. They dropped it in every single 64-bit version of Windows they have ever made (including the IA64 versions of Windows as well, but that's a completely different story anyway).

But you are wrong, since Microsoft does not support 16-bit and has not for many years. Just because 16-bit software works in their OS doesn't mean it is being actively supported.
Supporting it simply means that they don't drop the technology, which they didn't do until recently.
And again, recently is -way- later than what they should have done.

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Originally Posted by belgolas View Post
Lol not informed. sigh.

Yes you can get a mac mini but then you still need to buy a screen which adds at least $120. Then you need to still buy a keyboard and mouse. So the not so cheap mac mini can easily get close to a grand unless you buy used. Trust me I buy them for people and people still usually spend a grand on a mac mini system after buying stuff you need.

When you boot up a mac and if there is a problem like with my moms mac mini there was just a white screen and nothing else. It was also out of warranty so I had to some how fix it. Well so with no error code or beeps or anything I had to just randomly try stuff. While at least with any windows system you get beeps or a code. So the inferior 8bit piece of crap does a better job than the 2010 worthless piece of crap in Macs. Also you can't really change anything in the BIOS for Mac.

3) Lets say you want to add in your own raid controller, or wireless card, tv tuner, or PCIe SSD card. Oh wait you can't because it isn't supported by the OS unless almighty Steve wants it to. So you can only use your Mac how Apple wants it. Oh and last I checked windows is simple and stable as well.


Also by no means am I saying Snow Leopard is a bad OS. I think it is a great OS and in many ways better than Windows 7.
For your moms mac mini, one simple answer for you: Get it to a repair specialist. Those guys exist for a reason.
And a lil story like that don't embelish what the bios is. It is crap for the past 20 years and still is today.

3) Wrong again. Your answer lies in those two keywords: "EFI" and "Drivers"

Edit Arinoth: Stop double posting, next one i find will result in an infraction
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Last edited by Arinoth; April 30, 2010 at 05:08 PM. Reason: Double Posting
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old April 30, 2010, 04:16 PM
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m1dget, I use macs everyday, and they're aren't the be all and end all of systems. Personally, I love them, but
AkG and others are raising good points. I've got a Mac Pro, and I've upgraded the GPU, but not nearly as much as I'd like to. It's got a 4870 in it and I'd love to have a 5870. We can't put everything in that we'd like to. Macs do have flaws, and I don't really agree with Steve on a lot of his ethics. I just like OS X.

That's why I own a PC as well. I love the upgradibility (is that a word ?? ) , and windows 7 is a pretty shiny OS, it's just a bit slower cuz it has to cover for so much more.

However, I don't mean to offend you AkG, but your view of OS X is kinda off. OS X is a very open OS, capable of a lot, not a 'walled in garden'. It's the hardware that's limited, not the software. The OS is as open as windows 7 in my experience.

Also they had to drop a lot of users off with the switch to intel CPU's. The old powerPC CPU's from IBM weren't x86, as such all the apps between intel and PPC were not really crossplatform without emulaters (which isn't really crossplatform at all). If your referring to the fact the new iPhone OS won't support the 1st gen iPhones: there's a point when the old hardware needs to be cut loose to make room for better apps and services, especially at the beginning of a product line like the iPhone, were processing power increases greatly over the 1st few generations
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old April 30, 2010, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by AkG View Post
The reason it doesnt make any sense to you m1dget is the fact you are not a programmer. In the real world on large scale projects different groups are responsible for different parts. NO ONE does it all anymore. The broader the scope the more groups are involved the worse things get. Where there is a LIMITED amount of hardware options on Apples this means fewer groups interacting. The more groups that interact....the more kuldges have to be implemented to get it all to work.

MS on the other hand has to work on the majority of equipment that is out there now AND support 20yr old kit. Apple has the luxury of telling their lemmings to upgrade if they dont like it if new the shiny version breaks past compatibility. Windows cant do that and keep the business spectrum happy. Like I said Apple doesnt have this problem as they dont have a business presence outside of some VERY niche areas to alienate.

As for nix and the internet...when was the last time you saw someone use a server for home use...or anything besides its niche area? Nix is great for somethings, but personal computers aint one of them. This is changing SLOWLY but their is a very elitist attitude associated with that niche. You dont here HWC or other PC enthusiasts telling peeps to RTFM, yet that is a very common response in the nix world.

No the idea behind the GUI interface is not simplicity it is EFFICIENCY. Pretty pictures are simple...but not necessarily efficient at getting work done. And I think "apple poweruser" is an oxymoron. What is there to power? You have a walled garden to play in and cant get out of it.

As for BSD and Apple and the kernel. You are dreaming if you think Apple is open source. At least MS isnt as two faced about it as Apple. Apples is a closed source community and like it that way. They have no problems taking ideas from the open source community but are not exactly free with giving.

As for lots of supported hardware. Please, "lots" and MOST are two different things all together. Saying otherwise is foolish and shows your lack of understanding. There are still MANY pieces of kit and models therein that simply wont work in nix. Once again its getting better...but not ready for prime time yet.

And I know lots of programmers (I once was one myself) that hate Apple for their fascist rules and wont touch it w/ a 10 ft pole. Lots of peeps dont like working on Apple OS. There are many examples of Apple seeing a small apple developer, liking his product, watching it get polished and then rolling it into the next upgrade of the OS and telling the developer to FOAD. Widgets was a great example of that.

As for the tired old "windoze freezes". Puhleeze that was over a decade ago. Stop beating a dead horse. XP was very stable. Win 7 is also very stable. Apple Mac OS X also does crash to you know.
For me not being a programmer? Well I beg to differ. I'm not going to link my company's website or any products we have on the market, but let me tell you one thing, you are wrong.
I know how large scale projects works and read a few books on the subject. Though we are a small team, you are not telling me anything new about how those works.

Believe me I understand and don't deny that MS has to work on a wider number of platform than what Apple has to and no wonder why they put so much effort in .NET. Still their work is far from the quality attained by other companies and they can't do anything about it since the base of their work is pretty bad and they would have to rewrite nearly all their code to make it good... and I'm pretty sure I don't have to tell that to a guy that seems to know about large scale (oo) projects.

I'm not sure to fully understand your questions about servers, but you would be surprised the number of people using home servers (if that is your question?).
And for BSD/*nix workstation, well with all the great desktop manager like gnome and kde and the monumental effort in creating and embelishing software that runs on the GUI, it's only a matter of time before people gain interest in those. The misinterpreted word "free" will make them drool and they will jump on it in a near future... unless MS and Apple's marketing gain the upper hand like the usual.
For the classic 'RTFM' and 'google it' response, well it's still the good old unix world and that will never change. We don't like people who can't think, but we will someday have to accept the fact that clueless people are taking over our beloved OSes.
Though you will still see it in most OpenBSD topics and in most of the *nix mailing list... this in undeniable (nubcakes are not really welcome there ).

For the powerusers, it's maybe only me that badly traducted this. I meant that people who are used to Aqua will be able to do more and do it faster than people on Windows.

For Apple and opensource, have fun: Mac OS X 10.6.3 - Source (i did)

For the supported hardware, well sure MS won't have any use of having their OS ran on a toaster or a 68k chip, but it's just to show that when we think that MS has lots of supported platform, they don't really do actually.

What Apple product did the people you know worked on by curiosity?

For the freezing part with the GUI, I meant simply how the window are drawing on the screen and how the threads are handled if the application in the window was to freeze. If a thread locks up under window, you may have to kill explorer to have it terminated. On the other hand on OSX, if the application thread(s) locks up, well you still can draw and have other window draw on it and you can still move it around without any problems. I don't want to go into details but it was just an example for that.
I didn't mean bluescreen or whatnot, you can see that I'm not just a random MS basher ;)
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old April 30, 2010, 04:26 PM
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For me not being a programmer? Well I beg to differ. I'm not going to link my company's website or any products we have on the market, )
I call BS on your company stuf, from your spec, you look like a teenager who have to ask mommy and daddy for a new piece of hardware.


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Old April 30, 2010, 04:26 PM
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No offense taken sneakysnake.
You to have raised many valid points. All in all its a great discussion. :)
Its that I dont think OSX is a good OS. It does what it was designed to do very well. I just dont think its the Alpha and the Omega like some people are making it out to be.
What I was referring to was the fact that for years Apple touted the PPC as way better then the intel x86 "garbage" (didnt Jobs state on numerous occasions that x86 was the past and apple would never use it? Cant remember the exact quote and his fancy power point graphic to "prove" it). Then when they swapped over...voila. Instant breakage. Apple took a different route and instead of offering support via emulation decided to tell everyone to upgrade or do without new apple kit, and they could get away with it as it is either Steve's way or the highway. Emulation may not be great, but its sure a lot better then saying go buy new stuff. I know that certainly wont fly in the corporate world. Hell lots JUST upgraded to XP from 2k and backwards compatibility is paramount.

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Originally Posted by H2O View Post
I call BS on your company stuf, from your spec, you look like a teenager who have to ask mommy and daddy for a new piece of hardware.

QFT'ed

Working on a project as lead gopher =/= programming. Programming one small slice of a program =/= overall understanding of a what goes into a program. When you have not only programed in one small cog, then leed programmer in one small section and THEN manged huge projects with peeps in not only different cities or even provinces but different countries. THEN you will know how a big software is designed, and the hassles involved. As for me been there done (most of) that and I DON'T even claim to understand all the intricacies as it has been a long arsed while since I word my software wizard hat and knew enough to NOT take on that role as project manager (more effort....less pay...why bother was my POV back then).
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Last edited by AkG; April 30, 2010 at 04:35 PM.
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Old April 30, 2010, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by m1dget View Post
you can see that I'm not just a random MS basher ;)
I get what your saying, but starting a thread named 'hehe' in the mac forum about MS canceling one of their projects does lend to the belief that you may be a basher, and your signature doesn't help: "Death to MS"

Quote:
What I was referring to was the fact that for years Apple touted the PPC as way better then the intel x86 "garbage" (didnt Jobs state on numerous occasions that x86 was the past and apple would never use it? Cant remember the exact quote and his fancy power point graphic to "prove" it). Then when they swapped over...voila. Instant breakage. Apple took a different route and instead of offering support via emulation decided to tell everyone to upgrade or do without new apple kit, and they could get away with it as it is either Steve's way or the highway. Emulation may not be great, but its sure a lot better then saying go buy new stuff. I know that certainly wont fly in the corporate world. Hell lots JUST upgraded to XP from 2k and backwards compatibility is paramount
Haha yes, steve did have to bite his tongue pretty hard numerous times during the PPC years. He also claimed that when the power mac G5's came out at dual 2.0 GHz that it would reach 3 GHz in a year, several years later we mananged to hit 2.5 before the switch to intel. I think it was a very poor judgement decision, where steve saw PPC as winning in the end and turned out to be horribly wrong. They did however support via emulation the PPC folks for years after the switch. Snow Leopard was the first OS that didn't support PPC.
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Old April 30, 2010, 04:38 PM
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Midget.....

1. Please, don't double/triple post. There is a multi-quote and edit button. They are your friends.

2. Have you ever noticed how people complain that they have to upgrade from XP? An OS from 2001 and people still almost batter MS into letting them use it? Apple on the other hand does what they want. They make decisions at YOUR expense. MS is more in touch with the consumers.

3. You're contradicting yourself a lot. Most of your posts are opposite of what you said before.

4. If you're a programmer, you use Windows (or maybe Linux). Not OSX. Unless you code programs for OSX. If you want to make a square hole you don't use a holesaw.

5. Why do you love Apple so much? You seem like a Linux guy. Maybe you want Apple to send you a rig for being so nice to them on forums (your PC's specs look pretty dated!).

3.
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Old April 30, 2010, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SneakySnake View Post
I get what your saying, but starting a thread named 'hehe' in the mac forum about MS canceling one of their projects does lend to the belief that you may be a basher, and your signature doesn't help: "Death to MS"



Haha yes, steve did have to bite his tongue pretty hard numerous times during the PPC years. He also claimed that when the power mac G5's came out at dual 2.0 GHz that it would reach 3 GHz in a year, several years later we mananged to hit 2.5 before the switch to intel. I think it was a very poor judgement decision, where steve saw PPC as winning in the end and turned out to be horribly wrong. They did however support via emulation the PPC folks for years after the switch. Snow Leopard was the first OS that didn't support PPC.
Yup you are certainly right that they did support it for a couple years. Maybe its just my POV but 5 yrs doesnt seem like enough time to be taken seriously. It would have been easy enough to include it via an optional download or install instead of out right breakage. For example I still use Word 2003. If it had been on a MAC...I would be forced to upgrade to that ribbon crap (I've come to terms with it in excel...but cant stand it in word). Thats a bad example but sorta is where I come from. :)

Edit:
And I have to say this is probably one of the best Mac discussions to happen on HWC in a long time. Very little fanboi (both sides) and lots of honest discussion w/ wildly varied POVs.
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Last edited by AkG; April 30, 2010 at 04:45 PM.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old April 30, 2010, 04:46 PM
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insult me..... well. when I see thoses specs , I can hardly see how you can laugh at other peoples PC an OS

Thank you for judging me on a piece of work equipement like that. Very nice seeing how a lil materialistic **** thinks.

And thanks again because I forgot to change it. My work computer is a nice 500MHz P3 with 512MB of ram and about 24GB of HDD running NetBSD and blackbox.

What do you think of me now? Do I deserve to live?
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