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  #91 (permalink)  
Old May 9, 2011, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by SKYMTL View Post
Ironic considering you folded for us before the CC anyways.
That's precisely what really doesn't sit well with me about this whole thing. 10e, CoreX5 and myself have folded about 10m points combined for HWC in the past. But somehow our contribution to the team is deemed "unfair."

I am among the many team members who will do everything I can to ensure a victory regardless of the arbitrary penalty. But I am not going to say "it's okay" regarding the penalty. There's nothing about it that is okay, from the penalty itself, to the ridiculously childish behaviour from a vocal minority that begot it, to the implied admission of guilt by accepting the penalty.

There's a sentiment on this forum that complaining about it ain't gonna make a lick of difference - what's done is done and we just have to man up and deal with it with our heads held high. We will man up. We will fight the good fight. We will fold like we've never folded before. But I strongly disagree that it is counter-productive to complain about the unsportsmanlike arbitrary penalty. I think complaining about it is good for the CC long-term and I'll tell you why... We are possibly the only team they could have done this to and gotten away with it owing to the unique median age of this forum. If this had happened to a younger, more sensitive and less cohesive folding team, the results could have been dramatically negative for the project by discouraging participation - which is the opposite of the intended goal of the CC. These are lessons that must be learned and never forgotten if the CC hopes to continue to be of any benefit to the project.

And that is why we cannot just roll over and pretend nothing happened. It's like the 1998-99 foot-in-the-crease rule. It was an imperfect approach to dealing with the issue of goaltender interference that really didn't work very well and everybody knew it. But it was the rule by which everybody agreed to play that year, and so they did. Later tweaks to the rulebook improved the way goaltender interference is handled. The way the CC has responded to the imperfection of the new scoring system has been wholly inappropriate. Since imperfections in next year's system can also be expected, the CC must change its philosophy to how it deals with imperfection. It is our responsibility to ensure that happens.
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old May 9, 2011, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dead Things View Post
That's precisely what really doesn't sit well with me about this whole thing. 10e, CoreX5 and myself have folded about 10m points combined for HWC in the past. But somehow our contribution to the team is deemed "unfair."
It's not that it is an unfair, it's that it was an incorrect initial calculation. You, 10e, Core, Gav777, etc. weren't folding for HWC during the 6 month duration when that the handicap sample size was taken from. Therefore, despite the fact that you have folded for us in the past, (which makes it all the more reason you should have been included) the HWC "assumed" average on which a chimp point was based on, was without 30% of the "team".

Again it wasn't an issue when it was within 10-15%, but the fact of the mater is, 1/3 of Beavers_Gone_Bananas is from NCIX. Therefore 1/3 of our "baseline" on which Chimp Points, should also be from NCIX. I'm actually having difficulty understanding why so many people are having difficult grasping this concept.

This isn't a 30% penalty at ALL. We did not get penalized 30% or deducted 30% of our points as a slap on the wrist, it was a reassessment based on the fact that a MAJOR portion of our team, wasn't actually with our team at all during the handicap assessment and thus, wasn't taken into consideration when the "team average" was determined.

So basically this means, that 70% of our handicap comes from HWC, and 30% comes from NCIX - we aren't magically now supposed to obtain 130% of our folding power - because before we were only achieving 70%. So we need to make sure that the HWC contingent can keep up its 70% and the NCIX side can keep up its 30%

Last edited by FiXT; May 9, 2011 at 12:41 PM.
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old May 9, 2011, 12:45 PM
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Two things - First, distinguishing between a 10-15% contribution and a 30% contribution is a slippery slope that ought to be avoided. Either you allow outside contributions and recruitment or you don't. Otherwise the contest will be subject to variable rule interpretations and matters of opinion which will lead to even more bickering if that's remotely conceivable.

Second, the rules are the rules and they should be treated like rules for the duration of the contest. If the rules did not create the expected or desired result, they should be amended prior to the next iteration of the contest. Changing the rules mid-contest creates more problems than it solves. Besides, we all knew coming into this that the first draft of the revised point system would be imperfect. Nothing has changed. So this particular response can only be characterized as heavy-handed.
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  #94 (permalink)  
Old May 9, 2011, 12:50 PM
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lol, more whining in the chat box saying how NCIX's PPD has dropped more than 30%. Wow.
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old May 9, 2011, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Dead Things View Post
Two things - First, distinguishing between a 10-15% contribution and a 30% contribution is a slippery slope that ought to be avoided. Either you allow outside contributions and recruitment or you don't. Otherwise the contest will be subject to variable rule interpretations and matters of opinion which will lead to even more bickering if that's remotely conceivable.

Second, the rules are the rules and they should be treated like rules for the duration of the contest. If the rules did not create the expected or desired result, they should be amended prior to the next iteration of the contest. Changing the rules mid-contest creates more problems than it solves. Besides, we all knew coming into this that the first draft of the revised point system would be imperfect. Nothing has changed. So this particular response can only be characterized as heavy-handed.

We can go and recruit 100% new folders to the flock if we want, double our PPD, and have more non base HWC members than HWC members. But when there is a clear cut agreement with another team to be a part of the "base" team, then that factor needs to be a part of the base handicap. Your right, it is a slippery slope to begin classifying percentages in different categories. But it was felt that in this particular case, it when from moderate/modest to critically influential.

If HardOCP all of a sudden jumped on the OCN bandwagon, and agreed to dedicate 5M PPD to them for the contest, and then return back to the [H]ardOCP team... would you still be defending keeping OCN's handicap the same as it was at the start of the contest?
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old May 9, 2011, 12:55 PM
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I'll have to agree with FiXT. In terms of fair play, NCIX is our trump card. With them we have a very high chance of winning but without them who knows. Folding is about achieving one goal. The CC is about having fair fun. Even though the point system was in place, it is stated in the rules that the Captains can change them to balance the event. What are the point calculation adjustments that other teams received?

I believe we are more upset at how the rule change was set into place: the numerous complains by a vocal minority. We are folding so much more than last week. I'm very impressed and proud of HWC. I've got everything I could fold going. I went from 7-8k ppd to ~30k ppd just because of the CC and I still want to get more out. I bet that all of us are folding even more because of the penalty. Looking past the CC, the whole folding community is pumping out more than normal for these 10 days. In my opinion, for that reason, CC this year will be successful.

So let's keep folding and win this.
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old May 9, 2011, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldonko View Post
IM running a 2600k @ 5Ghz, 2500k at 4.6Ghz, and a GTX 460 in each system. Probably 60k ppd or so.
A whole lot more actually.

2600k: 50k-60k
2500k: 30k-40k
460: 10k-12k

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  #98 (permalink)  
Old May 9, 2011, 01:04 PM
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Called in a favor or 2 should have 100-200ppd coming our way within 24-48 hours, off to see if I can recruit some more to the Beavers Side, Come to the Beavers side we have..... well beaver.
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  #99 (permalink)  
Old May 9, 2011, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Supergrover View Post
Called in a favor or 2 should have 100-200ppd coming our way within 24-48 hours, off to see if I can recruit some more to the Beavers Side, Come to the Beavers side we have..... well beaver.
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  #100 (permalink)  
Old May 9, 2011, 01:25 PM
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FiXT - before I start to or continue to make the wrong impression, I just want to make it clear that I 100% agree with you. I am not trying to argue that this is not an issue that needs to be dealt with. I can see as clearly as everybody else that the revised scoring system is not working properly given the unique relationship between the HWC and NCIX folding teams.

I only contend that the adjustment adds to rather than resolves the problem. It's a knee-jerk reaction to something that should instead undergo careful deliberation and agreement between teams. Creating a points system that puts all teams on a level playing field despite the unique and different situations of each is no doubt a challenge and will take time. It's important to be able to look back and review how exactly the point system successfully or unsuccessfully reflected the performance of each team in the contest in order to evaluate it and propose new solutions. I worry about two things:

1) That the penalty will impede the ability of contest organizers to properly assess the performance of the current scoring system and propose adequate solutions for next year.
2) That if a similar penalty-based approach is taken to future scoring system imperfections that it could have an adverse effect on folding participation.

I am attempting to lodge my complaints in the spirit of long-term improvement of the CC and maximizing its ability to benefit the project. I understand that the content of my complaints make it seem as though I am selfishly defending our team's advantage - and unfortunately that's an impossible perception to avoid given the topic. Believe me, I would feel the same if I folded for an unrelated team.
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