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  #551 (permalink)  
Old August 18, 2013, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Jackquelegs View Post
Matchmaker is retarded but doesn't decide a game, it's only the really awful players that don't carry their weight that kill the matches.
Disagree - MM does decide games in many instances, as does having bad players but that's what the MM does; match up a good player with bad players. I've seen too many cases of 10 or more lemmings going one way where one or two players can't really defend the base well on many maps. Often enough 2 of us in a platoon (with TeamSpeak) will be in the top 3 or 4 scorers (damage and/or kills) and we still lose.

In your example (great game!) of 9 kills, you actually carried the team making up for the deficiency - you had 7 players on your side that did ZERO damage. I had a game with 9 kills as an arty (most in TD mode) and we still lost.

A guy and his girlfriend made new accounts. Played intentionally bad. Kept an accurate record of scores, they always got matched with good players and won more games. Next time you buy a new tank, watch the match ups you get. Once you get the Master Gunner badges, you'll see the changes in the line up. I really believe that the Master Gunner badges are flags for the MM. Same with arty. An arty with Master Gunner will get stuck on the worst arty maps. New (unproven) arty will get better maps and be higher in the lineup tier.

I am seeing a lot of 5 minute or less games where one team just rolls over another - win or lose, most those are not good games IMO.
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  #552 (permalink)  
Old August 18, 2013, 10:57 AM
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MM decides games when it pits 5 more T10s on one team than the other, but that only happens once in a long while.

Otherwise if you're a good player, and you know where to position your tank to carry the team, you'll come out victorious most of the time especially when platooned
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  #553 (permalink)  
Old August 18, 2013, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackquelegs View Post
MM decides games when it pits 5 more T10s on one team than the other, but that only happens once in a long while.

Otherwise if you're a good player, and you know where to position your tank to carry the team, you'll come out victorious most of the time especially when platooned
Why are you carrying the team? Sometime it's necessary, but at Tier 10? It seems to me, that you've learned to take advantage of poor matchmaking.

I've chatted with many people about the MM and several have stated that the fairest MM comes about in Tier 10 and sometimes Tier 9 simply because it doesn't go any higher. However, playing Tier 9 and 10 works to WarGaming's advantage because of the cost (unless sponsored).

Note: I don't have anything higher than T8 - sold my T9 as too costly to maintain.
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  #554 (permalink)  
Old October 29, 2013, 10:44 AM
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Matchmaker has gotten much better for somethings (Tighter tier spread) , however regardless of Skill...you are one player....there is really a limited amount at most tiers you can do.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that skill doesn't matter...more that it matters only so much.
It hurts a lot in the lower tiers, and too many times people running XVM (I never do) see teams that have 20% chance of winning...the system doesn't take into consideration player 'weight'. I worked for wargamming and understand how MM picks its tanks...but there isn't a solid metric in the system yet that determines whom to put on which side.
And as of late with all the influx of new players and such its diluted to the point where a lot of games you say "why bother".

Ironically, where player skill really matters in the utmost is WoWP.
I have found that single good players can more than hold their own when the team facerolls it.
It feels more skill based, because unlike the 2D WoT, you fight in 3 dimensions and if you have good awareness and knowledge can rule the field.

-ST
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  #555 (permalink)  
Old October 29, 2013, 11:10 AM
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This is the age old question that come into play with every form of matchmaking. The bottom line is it all averages out, sure you might get some bad games that are unwinnable no matter what you do but in the end if you improve faster than average your ranking will go up and if you improve slower than the average your ranking will go down over time.

The feeling that matchmaking is unfair is due to psychological bias, people tend to remember the bad players in their game when they do well more than they remember the good players in their game when they do poorly. Some games you carry and some games you get carried and you tend to think you did better in the games that you got carried than you actually did because your team set you up for success.
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  #556 (permalink)  
Old October 29, 2013, 11:44 AM
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The next update (8.9) which is in public beta now, introduces a new type of matchmaking, but it's limited to 7 players. So, I'll be interested in seeing how that works out, especially on the larger maps when people go 'lemming' mode.

These are (just a few of the) notes posted by WarGaming on the next update:

8.9.3 Public Test | Announcements | World of Tanks



“New game mode: "Team Battle." Battles for teams up to 7 players with balancing them by players' experience level

The following notes sound cryptic to me and perhaps an indication that the MM system is quite a convoluted system. I also suspect they have a lot of MM tweaks they don't post :)

“Edited parameters of Personal Rating:

Strongly reduced influence of battle quantity after reach of certain limit
Added limiting factors on 'cheating' with percentage indicators
Removed low end limits on average damage dealt and average XP received
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  #557 (permalink)  
Old October 30, 2013, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJThomp View Post
This is the age old question that come into play with every form of matchmaking. The bottom line is it all averages out, sure you might get some bad games that are unwinnable no matter what you do but in the end if you improve faster than average your ranking will go up and if you improve slower than the average your ranking will go down over time.

The feeling that matchmaking is unfair is due to psychological bias, people tend to remember the bad players in their game when they do well more than they remember the good players in their game when they do poorly. Some games you carry and some games you get carried and you tend to think you did better in the games that you got carried than you actually did because your team set you up for success.
True and not true really.
The problem with the 'diverse' skill base in MM is that more often than not it sets a huge bias on one side for skill level versus the others. This has happened a lot more on recent games because of all the MM adjustments being made.
I've actually setup a few dummy accounts that I use to test this theory and so far it works well. Skilled or unskilled if only two 'green' players are on one side and 5-9 on the other, coupled with being in a lower tiered tank, you are euchered. The game does not adjust for skill level to balance it out and give each team a fair try at it. If the teams themselves were balanced by the global W7 Rating , then your theory would hold more ground as that would give an 'even' shot at it for most people and help develop skill.
I've been playing WoT since Beta, now (and espically since you can track the player stats live) it has been a steady progression of more and more teams that can just steamroll the other.

-ST
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  #558 (permalink)  
Old October 30, 2013, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Soultribunal View Post
I've been playing WoT since Beta, now (and espically since you can track the player stats live) it has been a steady progression of more and more teams that can just steamroll the other.

-ST
Agree with you heartily; a definite effect of the MM. Too many 5 minute (or less) steamroller games; win or lose, they usually are not 'good' games. It's amazing how fast a team can unravel.

Getting a great full length game (win or lose) from a random match is getting rarer and rarer.
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  #559 (permalink)  
Old October 30, 2013, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soultribunal View Post
True and not true really.
The problem with the 'diverse' skill base in MM is that more often than not it sets a huge bias on one side for skill level versus the others. This has happened a lot more on recent games because of all the MM adjustments being made.
I've actually setup a few dummy accounts that I use to test this theory and so far it works well. Skilled or unskilled if only two 'green' players are on one side and 5-9 on the other, coupled with being in a lower tiered tank, you are euchered. The game does not adjust for skill level to balance it out and give each team a fair try at it. If the teams themselves were balanced by the global W7 Rating , then your theory would hold more ground as that would give an 'even' shot at it for most people and help develop skill.
I've been playing WoT since Beta, now (and espically since you can track the player stats live) it has been a steady progression of more and more teams that can just steamroll the other.

-ST
You can't forget that there is probably a penalty when people join games together. Might be worth exploring, I know most games where you can join with friends in automated match making give you a rating boost because you can co-ordinate.

That being said I don't play the game any more so I can't actually speak to it I was just talking in general.
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  #560 (permalink)  
Old October 30, 2013, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJThomp View Post
You can't forget that there is probably a penalty when people join games together. Might be worth exploring, I know most games where you can join with friends in automated match making give you a rating boost because you can co-ordinate.

That being said I don't play the game any more so I can't actually speak to it I was just talking in general.
They do balance it insofar as having equal platoons on either side, but that still has no effect if one platoon is 'green' and the other is orange or red. Usually Green is all on one side, that's half the reason they are exploring this 7 man skill based and weighted match making.
They are exploring the possibility of adding in a skill based weight to the metric of match making in hopes to stem the tide. Because as a paying player its no fun when you get put as the only good player on a side 60% of the time.

-ST
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