Go Back   Hardware Canucks > HARDWARE > Display Units

    
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31 (permalink)  
Old September 11, 2013, 03:22 PM
"Quote This..."
F@H
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hell
Posts: 3,828
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL View Post
One thing I think is being lost in translation here is that Lightboost DOES NOT increase refresh rate.
I know that. It shuts off the backlight so we don't see the smudgy pixel transition.
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old September 11, 2013, 04:00 PM
AkG's Avatar
AkG AkG is offline
Hardware Canucks Reviewer
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,327
Default

You seem to be mistaking overall image movements with player movements. Sure the code can guess at where you are moving at make YOUR movements and your surrounding images clean....BUT.. If you move...the netcode can not 'guess' at where you are going to go and place your avatar on the other persons screen. Thus ping time plays a HUGE roll in online game 'smoothness'. Or as you put it 'you cant hit what you cant see'. There are plenty of times when a LPB literally appears, kills you and moves on before you have even see them. 120Hz monitor will do jack for such scenarios.

In case that is still too vague...PING time is what makes or breaks online gameing. Not your monitor. And YES there are plenty of times when you will be lucky to get 30fps online. But hey that interpolation makes that 30 soooo smoooth.

Though honestly the moment you start talking about interpolation out one side of your mouth and image clarity the other...yeah..your obviously talking out your ass now and just want to reaffirm your purchase of a TN monitor. So mazeltov. Takes all kinds. There are no wrong answers. Etc etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeetard View Post
Let's agree to disagree about image quality vs. motion smoothness.

But from this statement it is evident that you know jack all about net code. That statement is dead wrong.

You equate latency (lag) with frequency(data rate) here. That is totally wrong. The time it takes the server to receive data has nothing to do with the amount of data it is receiving.
You are stating that a ping of 120ms is a receive rate of 1 frame of data in every 120ms. When it is actually a constant stream (however often that netcode is designed to update player actions and movement called the tick rate, you can tweak this if you have more bandwidth, most online netcode uses 15ms or 66.66 FPS, I jacked mine to 100 in the console) of data only it is 120ms behind real time. In addition to this, they use interpolation and other means of compensation to try and equal out and smooth out online game play.

Your analogy would turn online gaming into an unplayable slideshow and we would never have gotten past Quake 1 before people thought it sucked.

Now in addition to this, Me and most other top FPS peeps know that ping is over rated and used as an excuse. I'll prove it to you, go here:

Human Benchmark - Reaction Time Test

Test your reaction times. Tell me you can get under 200ms and I'll be impressed. This is pretty much worse than a high ping server. So lag be damned, whoever gets off first wins most battles.

In order to get off first you need to see first and shoot first. This is where smooth motion is critical. You whip a 180 with your mouse and everything washes out, it takes time for your brain to sort out this mess as it comes back into focus. I whip a 180 and I've got the guy spotted as soon as he comes into the frame and I'm already bringing my crosshairs around to his brain bucket. Dead guy.

Also, motion blur is an actual film effect caused by 30 fps and slow shutters. Not at all how we see the world. It got put into games to make crappy LCDs seem all hollywood. I turn that shit off first thing in the options.

So, you can go ahead and admire your pretty still image while you are waiting to respawn.
__________________
"If you ever start taking things too seriously, just remember that we are talking monkeys on an organic spaceship flying through the universe." -JR

“if your opponent has a conscience, then follow Gandhi. But if you enemy has no conscience, like Hitler, then follow Bonhoeffer.” - Dr. MLK jr
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old September 11, 2013, 04:02 PM
MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 447
Default

It's completely subjective. I think it's possible for two people with a full understanding of the facts to disagree about the display technology they prefer.

I was once a competitive FPS gamer too. I played at a level that might earn a six figure income these days. Framerate, and therefore refresh rate, was crucial. Almost all of us played with the lowest settings possible. If I still played at a high level, I would undoubtedly choose a lightboost panel.

These days, I'm not as willing to sacrifice image quality for performance. I might only play on pubs, and they're easy on any hardware--even if I still had to deal with 40ms of input lag on an old PVA panel. I've got a 'top of the line' 10 year old HD CRT next to me I use--and love--for Xbox 360 gaming, so I know exactly what I'm missing. Resolution and colour fidelity are more important to me on my PC.

It's about what we prioritize. As much as I'd appreciate lightboost, I'm not willing to sacrifice my desktop and gaming resolution by 44% or accept the shortcomings of TN panels.

But to each their own. This is what's great about the PC market: choice.

Last edited by Desiato; September 11, 2013 at 04:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old September 11, 2013, 04:07 PM
Top Prospect
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 164
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeetard View Post
It's not the 120hz that is better, it is the zero motion blur that the lightboost hack has brought to the table. It's not 60hz, it's crappy pixel refresh that is well documented in the Lightboost thread that sucks on an LCD. You young fella's must have never gamed on a CRT before You're used to the choppy crap you've been fed all these years. I'll grant that 2560x1440 IPS is probably better for RTS, but I've made my opinion of that glorified rock paper scissors genre known in another thread.
I'm an ex team warfare ladder champion in both Quake 3 and UT3 low grav instagib. Those were the days with a ball mouse and a CRT. UNSTOPPABLE! Somehow I got used to LCD's but it was never the same. Now I'm in Nirvana again, pwning noobs and doing their Mom's.

To each his own, luckily I'm always right.
Whoa whoa whoa, watch out guys, we have a certified internet gaming badass here!

You must have bad eyes to enjoy playing on washed out TN shit, the rest of us will continue to enjoy what 30" IPS provides.
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old September 11, 2013, 05:54 PM
MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 447
Default

Squeetard makes some good points. It goes without saying that network latency is an important factor when gaming. But it's not everything. Skill, personal attributes and equipment are all important factors too.

The outbound network interface between you and the computer (the display) is also important. A faster frame rate allows faster reactions. The Lightboost tweak provides better clarity which enables a more information to be transferred to the eyes and less error correction required by the brain. More and better data enables better decisions; if you can process it.

Like everything, you eventually reach a point when the benefits of improvement don't outweigh the costs. That is different for each of us.

Our sensory capabilities vary person to person. Some people can't tell the difference between 30 fps and 60. Others benefit from 120+. Most people I know either can't tell the difference between a maladjusted TN panel (to appear vivid) and an IPS or don't care. They might even prefer the former.
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old September 11, 2013, 08:15 PM
"Quote This..."
F@H
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hell
Posts: 3,828
Default

Well for me, my Dell U2711 SUCKED for gaming. I could give a shit whether the shade of blue was the exact shade of blue, didn't matter because I couldn't see shit anyways, the exact shade of blue was a jittery blur my eyes had trouble following.

I can still see where IPS has it's place, an absolute requirement for some (Photo editors, graphic designers etc..). But calling one excellent for gaming is laughable in the age of 120hz light boost. And remember I had both, side by side.
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old September 11, 2013, 09:28 PM
MacJunky's Avatar
Hall Of Fame
F@H
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Creston, BC
Posts: 1,717

My System Specs

Default

I have a U2711 and I use it for gaming. I previously used crappy TN abortions, before that I was using CRTs and some were Trinitrons.
I like my U2711.

As someone who likes to race old cars in GT Legends:
When you are using a fast hairy beast that is trying to kill you every two seconds..... and you are surrounded by people in the same situation let me tell you that you appreciate a nice low ping far more than minuscule display latency. Having a line of cars flying down a hill at 240kph trying to nail their braking points into a corner on bias-ply tires.... Yea. Though avoiding traffic in packs can be fun too. :P

Each car is moving around that corner on a different line with different steering input and different grip/weight transfers. And you even have different models of car with different handling reacting differently.
Even on a straight cars are not always going 100% straight with each other.

Of course reducing total latency is certainly not bad. Just do not downplay the effect of an internet connection too much.
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old September 12, 2013, 05:53 AM
"Quote This..."
F@H
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hell
Posts: 3,828
Default

Yet another who has not seen a lightboost monitor in action. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old September 12, 2013, 07:12 AM
AkG's Avatar
AkG AkG is offline
Hardware Canucks Reviewer
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,327
Default

Squee. Time to calm down and relax. Yes you love TN. You are totally sold on 120Hz. We get it. Have you used the 3014? More than two minutes at a store? No? Then as you said "you have no idea what you are talking about". Few have worked with both. I am one of the lucky few. Most here are going on previous experience. This includes you.

Until you have used both, for at least three weeks continuously your opinion holds no more weight than any of the other opinions. You came into this discussion with a 'Im right everyone else is wrong attitude'. Time to stop thinking you are the smartest person in the room and start trying to have a normal, conversation. If you are unable to do this, please leave before you say something that you will regret later.

EDIT

Just to be clear. I don't think you are wrong -for you - TN does have its place. I honestly can see edge cases such as you and your scenarios where TN does have a reason for being the optimal solution. I just think most are better served by a more well rounded option. If you want to continue the conversation...seriously...step back, take a deep breathe and convince us in a calm manner. You are obviously very passionate about it. SHOW us why you are.
__________________
"If you ever start taking things too seriously, just remember that we are talking monkeys on an organic spaceship flying through the universe." -JR

“if your opponent has a conscience, then follow Gandhi. But if you enemy has no conscience, like Hitler, then follow Bonhoeffer.” - Dr. MLK jr

Last edited by AkG; September 12, 2013 at 07:21 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old September 12, 2013, 07:26 AM
SKYMTL's Avatar
HardwareCanuck Review Editor
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 11,648
Default

I'm with AkG on this. I've used LightBoost and AH-IPS panels and I personally can't stand TN technology. Wash out colors, greyish blacks, blown out whites and all the other BS is more distraction to me than motion blur.

On the flip side of that coin, resolution isn't everything either since my current monitor, an ASUS PQ321Q, is awesome but I'm still not convinced with the IGZO technology.
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dell Ultrasharp U2713 27” AH-IPS Monitor Review COMMENT THREAD SKYMTL Display Units 116 December 23, 2013 07:42 AM
Dell UltraSharp U2713H 27” Monitor Review Comment Thread SKYMTL Display Units 13 April 17, 2013 02:39 PM
Dell UltraSharp U2412M Monitor Review Comment Thread SKYMTL Display Units 36 March 20, 2013 06:50 PM
Dell UltraSharp U2312HM, 23” Monitor Review Comment Thread SKYMTL Display Units 17 June 11, 2012 11:33 AM