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  #81 (permalink)  
Old April 3, 2008, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zlojack View Post
Well, with Xpresspost you can't do that. You have to give the item when you send it. It's not with stamps.

Still, this is a weird situation.

Who bought the other card, I wonder?
yeah i meant sticker-i think ill try that myself though and see if i can just take it back for a moment and give it back to them-just say oops i forgot to put something on the address........
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old April 3, 2008, 06:33 PM
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I disagree with Flintblade's analysis of the situation. Unless it is explicitly agreed upon otherwise, the buyer should always assume that the seller is going to have the card delivered to them in on piece.

Let me quote the OP:
Quote:
Yups, both! lol I'm looking for $500 (obo) Let me know, price includes shipping.
Since the price was advertised including shipping, shipping is the responsibility of the seller, and that includes delivering the product as advertised. In this case, mightyallspark's liability is compounded by the fact that the card was negligently packaged. Nothing should ever be shipped without insurance you're prepared to eat the cost of loss or damage out of pocket!!

I ship lots of stuff and this is this is the proper way transactions are done. So, in my view, mightyallspark is fully liable and should pay back every penny.

Flintblade, also note that regular parcel purchased at the post office includes NO insurance, you have to pay for it. Only Xpresspost includes $100 of insurance.
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Old April 3, 2008, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [buck] View Post
I disagree with Flintblade's analysis of the situation. Unless it is explicitly agreed upon otherwise, the buyer should always assume that the seller is going to have the card delivered to them in on piece.

Let me quote the OP:
Since the price was advertised including shipping, shipping is the responsibility of the seller, and that includes delivering the product as advertised. In this case, mightyallspark's liability is compounded by the fact that the card was negligently packaged. Nothing should ever be shipped without insurance you're prepared to eat the cost of loss or damage out of pocket!!

I ship lots of stuff and this is this is the proper way transactions are done. So, in my view, mightyallspark is fully liable and should pay back every penny.

Flintblade, also note that regular parcel purchased at the post office includes NO insurance, you have to pay for it. Only Xpresspost includes $100 of insurance.
No, free shipping or shipping included in the price DOES NOT mean you have to pay for insurance. That is an additional coverage by the buyer unless stated otherwise by the seller. When you go to rent/buy a car they don't force you too buy insurance. It's all additional that you can/must pay. Both parties are equally liable for the damage that has been done.

Yes, it should have been shipped with insurance, but not a necessity, it does not have too be shipped with insurance. It's advisable that if the value exceeds $200 that you pay the extra buck for insurance, but not needed. The person paying for shipping is the one too decide if the package is safe enough too not require insurance. The buyer did not request or pay for insurance. The seller clearly said shipping included, but not say what the method of shipping would be nor did she state insurance was included.

The only fault of the seller was the lack of packaging. I NEVER have anyone ship anything out for me, it's my responsibility. There have been a few cases where if it wasn't shipped out that day it would be a week before I was available too do it myself. So I would properly package it and write the address and everything on the package and have a friend/relative bring it too the post office. But I never ship anything without lots of packaging to ensure it's safety. This was a major fault of the seller and it should have been packaged and shipped out by her.

Once again, the seller is not liable for anything that happens with the shipping company. How can one blame the seller for the shipping companies negligence. It's just not fair that if a shipping company throws a package against a wall, breaks it and then the seller is responsible. Not too mention the fact that the buyer didn't pay shipping.

But at the same time, the buyer is now out of xxx amount of dollars because there was no insurance and the lack of packaging. The fairest way to resolve this is for the buyer to contact the post office, receive the minimum $100 insurance claim and then have the seller refund half of the remaining dollars. So the buyer gets $175 of the $250 and the seller is only out $75. Makes both parties as happy as possible.
  #84 (permalink)  
Old April 3, 2008, 11:00 PM
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Don't think there'll be any insurance on this one.


Did the purchaser of the other card receive it in good order?

Was it a pick up or was it also mailed?

Is that, in fact, belgolas' real postal code on the receipt in the photo?

Is allspark still in contact or did she disappear?
  #85 (permalink)  
Old April 4, 2008, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flintblade View Post
No, free shipping or shipping included in the price DOES NOT mean you have to pay for insurance. That is an additional coverage by the buyer unless stated otherwise by the seller. When you go to rent/buy a car they don't force you too buy insurance. It's all additional that you can/must pay. Both parties are equally liable for the damage that has been done.
That's a terrible analogy. A more appropriate one would be that you purchased a car from a dealership and they said they would deliver the car to your house. While being driven to your house, the car was totaled and towed to the buyer's house. The employee driving the car was not properly insured and as a result the insurance company would not cover it.

According to your logic, the dealer fulfilled all their obligations and as a result the buyer is SOL? Does that make any sense?

Quote:
Yes, it should have been shipped with insurance, but not a necessity, it does not have too be shipped with insurance. It's advisable that if the value exceeds $200 that you pay the extra buck for insurance, but not needed. The person paying for shipping is the one too decide if the package is safe enough too not require insurance. The buyer did not request or pay for insurance. The seller clearly said shipping included, but not say what the method of shipping would be nor did she state insurance was included.
I'm sorry - but no - the buyer has a reasonable expectation to having the product delivered to their door in good condition, unless agreed upon earlier, regardless of the shipping company. The shipping is the seller's responsibility. It's ironic that you say it's up to the seller to decide whether the package is safe for shipping - because it's blatantly clear that shipping a $450 video card in its retail box is not safe!

Quote:
The only fault of the seller was the lack of packaging. I NEVER have anyone ship anything out for me, it's my responsibility. There have been a few cases where if it wasn't shipped out that day it would be a week before I was available too do it myself. So I would properly package it and write the address and everything on the package and have a friend/relative bring it too the post office. But I never ship anything without lots of packaging to ensure it's safety. This was a major fault of the seller and it should have been packaged and shipped out by her.
You gloss over the fact that the seller didn't pack properly. If there could have been any doubt over who was responsible had it been properly packed - that doubt completely disappears when we see how negligently the card was packaged.

Quote:
Once again, the seller is not liable for anything that happens with the shipping company. How can one blame the seller for the shipping companies negligence. It's just not fair that if a shipping company throws a package against a wall, breaks it and then the seller is responsible. Not too mention the fact that the buyer didn't pay shipping.
By shipping the item by Canada Post, the seller was effectively contracting Canada Post to deliver the item. If Canada Post failed to do, that's between the seller and Canada Post. It's none of the the buyer's business. In this case, the seller has no recourse with Canada Post because they don't guarantee anything (except the original postage, I guess) if you don't purchase insurance.

Quote:
The fairest way to resolve this is for the buyer to contact the post office, receive the minimum $100 insurance claim and then have the seller refund half of the remaining dollars.
And in this case there is no $100 insurance claim because there is no $100 insurance. Regular parcel does not include insurance the receipt clearly says insurance was declined. Don't believe me? Go here, calculate a rate with $100 coverage, and you'll see that Canada Post charges extra for the insurance with regular parcel - coverage which was declined. And remind me to never do business with you on a transaction involving shipping

belgolas, make sure you get your refund. Be it through the seller, or through your credit card company.
  #86 (permalink)  
Old April 4, 2008, 01:42 AM
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It may have been a terrible analogy, but so was yours. This is a $250 item that was clearly stolen during shipment. It was not a $10,000++ car that was hand delivered by an incompetent employee. The company would obviously be liable for the driver of whom was reckless and had the car totaled.

This is a matter of an item being dropped off at a postal office and the employee stole the item because there was no insurance.

With your analogy, the best way too put it would be. The car was purchased overseas because it was $6000 below the MSRP at a local dealer and for a limited time, came with with shipping at no charge. So you saved $6000 and didn't have too pay for shipping. They asked you if you would like to purchase additional insurance for $500, but you declined and assumed it would be safe ( it's on a boat with hundreds of other cars, what's the worst that can happen!). So, the car was shipped and the boat that contained the cargo and your precious car ended up passing through rough weather and had gone missing (i.e hurricane, typhoon). The company of which you purchased the car from is not liable because you didn't buy the insurance coverage of which was not included in the shipping. So now you lose the money you spent on the car and they don't have to cover your losses.

So yes, my analogy was bad, but yours was in fact, much worse.

Quote:
I'm sorry - but no - the buyer has a reasonable expectation to having the product delivered to their door in good condition, unless agreed upon earlier, regardless of the shipping company. The shipping is the seller's responsibility. It's ironic that you say it's up to the seller to decide whether the package is safe for shipping - because it's blatantly clear that shipping a $450 video card in its retail box is not safe!
Yes, if I bought something from anybody, I would expect that I get what I paid for. I wouldn't care if it was $2 or $4000. I don't like too lose money, being a poor University student, I'm already pushing pennies. So I would expect that the package be properly shipped in such a way that it can make it too my house without being damaged or stolen. If you ship an ipod without packaging, I would be furious if it was stolen. I've had many items shipped too me and never asked for insurance. I pay for the shipping and don't feel the need to waste $5+ on insurance. As long as the package is covered up so that the contents inside the package aren't visible, insurance isn't a concern. If someone is buying something from me, I'm usually paranoid and insist on insurance, but I will not pay for it. So if I don't receive the money to pay for it, I don't request insurance when shipping the item.

I clearly stated that the seller is obligated to ensure the safety of the package. By doing so, when shipping a $450 item, you either get insurance, or cover up the retail box. I would have placed it in a bubble package or covered it in paper or something even if I had too pay for it. The shipping of an item is the responsibility of the seller until it's no longer in their hands. Then it becomes a matter of the postal service.

However, in the event of the item not arriving safely to it's destination. I try to find a means of resolving it. So far, with my 150+ trades, I've never experienced an issue where the postal lost, stole, or damaged a product. But if it ever happened too me. I would find a reasonable means of resolving the matter. I would not do a full refund ever. But if it was clear the item was stolen and the buyer did not want insurance. That would be their problem, in my case, the package would have been wrapped up according. At most, I would do a partial refund just because I would feel remorse for the buyer.

Quote:
You gloss over the fact that the seller didn't pack properly. If there could have been any doubt over who was responsible had it been properly packed - that doubt completely disappears when we see how negligently the card was packaged.
All I can say in response to this is, what was the seller thinking. Who doesn't properly wrap a package, for any reason. No matter what the value is. If I had lost the original packaging for some ram that I was selling. Then I would toss the stick of ram in anti-static wrap, cover it up in newspaper and toss it in a bubble wrap with styrofoam before ever leaving my house with it. Theres just no excuse for not taking this matter seriously. When doing a trade, everything up until it's in the hands of the postal service, it's in your utmost responsibility to ensure that everything is done right. Even when the postal service has the package, you should still keep the buyer updated with a tracking number and be sure to do anything else that you can. Make sure that there was ample insurance coverage if they paid. Or, if you're paranoid like me, toss a few bucks around for extra packaging or just get the insurance. I would be too paranoid to see a package leave my hands if it didn't receive the proper care that I would expect when receiving a package. The only thing worse than losing $5-10 on packaging/insurance is seeing someone lose $300++ because the item was damaged/stolen.

So I just... I don't know how anyone could not take pride and care into a package worth over $400. Maybe I'm just accustomed too not having a lot of money and taking care of what I have. The mere fact that it was not wrapped properly and she had a friend do all the work in shipping the item is the reason why I would say at minimal, a partial refund, being half of what was paid, be refunded.

Quote:
By shipping the item by Canada Post, the seller was effectively contracting Canada Post to deliver the item. If Canada Post failed to do, that's between the seller and Canada Post. It's none of the the buyer's business. In this case, the seller has no recourse with Canada Post because they don't guarantee anything (except the original postage, I guess) if you don't purchase insurance.
This is true and if I was the seller ( Well I would have packed it up efficiently and probably caved and got insurance), I would do my best to resolve the matter. Calling up CanadaPost regularly trying to get some insight on what can be done. I would definitely refund half of the purchase price without question due to the lack of packaging.

Quote:
And in this case there is no $100 insurance claim because there is no $100 insurance. Regular parcel does not include insurance the receipt clearly says insurance was declined. Don't believe me? Go here, calculate a rate with $100 coverage, and you'll see that Canada Post charges extra for the insurance with regular parcel - coverage which was declined. And remind me to never do business with you on a transaction involving shipping
Ya, I thought they had $100 base insurance on regular. I forgot about how crappy regular was because I rarely use it. Since I do so much online trading I have a ventureone card which gives me express shipping for the cost of regular. I also get a 5% discount on regular, but I hate regular. The vast majority of my trades are also within Ontario, so I ship the package expedited ( same as express but cheaper, only available within the same province). I've only shipped maybe two items regular, if the buyer gives me $7 for shipping and regular was $7.20 and express is $8, I just ship it express. The extra dollar is nothing and express is faster. I guess I always went with express because of the insurance and then assumed regular had it as well... whatever doesn't matter.

The reason I went with the resolution being that only half of the total amount be refunded is because, it was also partially belgolas' fault for not requesting insurance. You may feel remorse for belgolas and that he should get the $250 he paid refunded. But think about mightyallspark who will be losing $250. Do you think she should lose $250? It's one person or the other. I felt that an equal loss would be the appropriate recourse for the negligence of this transaction.

But if belgolas is true to his word when he said he requested that express would be a better method and was willing too pay extra for it. Then I would increase the refund of $100 for the insurance that he would be able to reclaim through canadapost and half of the total cost of the item. That being $100 + $125 would be fair too say for the lack of packaging. Which brings the total too $225 allowing mightyallspark too at least recoup the cost of shipping that she spent.

After further inspection of the trade. It really does seem fishy that the card was stolen. I trust canadapost would not take an item out of the box. This is because, I literally went too canadapost one day, packed up a 360 in front of their eyes and shipped it out too my brother without any insurance. The item arrived and after my brother owned up Halo 3, he shipped it back too me in the same packaging, but he caved and got insurance. So I just find it hard to believe and the more I look at what happened, it honestly seems planned out. Like she didn't want too ship it with insurance and purposely did not wrap it properly and didn't even put the card in the box when it was shipped. Since Canadapost would do a full 2-3 week investigation too be sure that the item was stolen/lost, rather than not shipped at all. She may have thought it would be easier too not get insurance so no investigation would be made.

I wonder if you can visibly see that the package was cut open and taped again.

Oh and don't worry buck, I doubt I would be inclined too doing business with you. I'm cheap and rarely buy expensive hardware... But who knows, maybe one day we will be forced too do so!!

Last edited by Flintblade; April 4, 2008 at 01:56 AM.
  #87 (permalink)  
Old April 4, 2008, 05:41 AM
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The seller included shipping in the price of the item. That implies they are taking care of it. The buyer should perhaps request that there be some sort of insurance, but by stating that shipping is included, the seller is taking responsibility for getting the package to the buyer's door. That is what any reasonable, honest person would do.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old April 4, 2008, 06:07 AM
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"That's a terrible analogy. A more appropriate one would be that you purchased a car from a dealership and they said they would deliver the car to your house. While being driven to your house, the car was totaled and towed to the buyer's house. The employee driving the car was not properly insured and as a result the insurance company would not cover it."

Ive got a friend in the family who bought a smallish plane from Sas. that had to be delivered to Alberta. The guy who flew the plane crashed it on takeoff and wrecked it at Sas. Turned out it wasnt insured for the delivery-wasnt made clear by the company-freind was insured but he wasnt flying it.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old April 5, 2008, 05:05 PM
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it is only 85 cents for 100 dollars of insurance. So lets just say 3 bucks. # bucks and we wouldn't be having a fight. Like I said I can't choose the shipping. I do have a pm that says the shipper would ship through ups though.




Re: My PayPal
Quote:
Originally Posted by belgolas
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyallspark
Quote:
Originally Posted by belgolas
well it shouldn't take long to clear. So you guys don't live that far away nice :).

Okay, I "accepted" payment, once cleared I'll ship and give you the tracking number, I'll mark as SOLD, do you wan't me to mention your name? I can keep it hush hush if you choose.


if you want I could pay a bit more for priority shipping? it doesn't matter if you make it hush hush or not. I am so excited.


Actually, my price includes UPS ground, usually takes 3 - 10 business days, I just spoke to Canada Post and they said 5 - 10 so it's around 5 - 7! lol I know they can be inaccurate.
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old April 5, 2008, 05:55 PM
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I guess this is dragging out. There was something fishy about this trader. The whole thing stinks. They should have shipped it more carefully and made it clear they were not insuring it unless paid. I think its worth taking action against this trader.
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