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  #21 (permalink)  
Old June 7, 2009, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by IRQ Conflict View Post
But at the cost of accuracy. Your best bet is to buy the largest diameter subs you can afford.

I hate ported subs. They are junk.
Not entirely correct. As long as the enclosure and port was made to the correct size, length. Then that is not true. If all vented subs were 'junk' then why would most high-end home theatre subwoofer enclosures be vented?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old June 8, 2009, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by IRQ Conflict View Post
Actually it is done to extend the low frequency range. But at the cost of accuracy. Your best bet is to buy the largest diameter subs you can afford.

I hate ported subs. They are junk.
Lots of Blanked statements here. These would be great in the winter.

JL audio talks about the Pros and Cons of different subwoofer enclosures on their website.

JL Audio

Larger cones can move more air, which means they are more efficient, play louder (all else equal), and play lower (all else equal). This does not mean that a 10ncih driver can't perform better then a 15inch driver. There is many sub-satisfactory (Ba-Zing!) drivers out there. TC Sounds, Infinity, JL Audio, Dayton, etc are just a few brands that build great drivers. You just need to make sure the driver is installed in a box that works with it's Theil/Small paramters.

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Last edited by Sheep; June 8, 2009 at 05:41 PM.
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Old June 8, 2009, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cadaveca View Post
you're right, but my ears aren't designed to specifics, nor is my living room a soundproof testing station. I'm a musician, so when I record myself playing, playback must sound exactly the same to my trained ear.
I find it contradictory to be a musician and think that the room and system setup don't play a big role. You're ears sound be designed to specifics. You should know your sound off by heart, and how your room interacts with it. You have to remember, what you record, will have your rooms characteristics build into the sound(unless you record through direct inputs). Unless you deal with room anomalies, you will never have the true sound. If you like the rooms sound, that's one thing, but ordinary rooms have not been shown to have a desirable sound.

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Originally Posted by cadaveca View Post
Also of note is that Yamaha makes 2 of it's high-end amplifiers with 7.2 + "presence" speakers for a reason...which my set-up emulates.
I know of this. I haven't actually experienced it before though.

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Originally Posted by cadaveca View Post
And while bass amy radiate in all directions, lovely things like furniture affect sound quite largely, so non-standard set-ups to overcome this are not going to be configured normally, nor is my set-up really used as a home theatre...it's used as a home studio.
Furniture will effect sound, but putting a chair in front of a subwoofer is going to do jack all in the grand scheme of things. Bass sound waves are significantly longer then treble waves, and can bend around objects without being phased in any way. Chairs have stuffing, and cushions, that can dampen and absorb some bass, but generally the stuffing/padding is not of a sufficient density to absorb any meaningful amount of sound. If you have 2 subwoofers and are having response problems, try placing them in opposing corners. In rectangular rooms, this really helps flatten the frequency response, and also widens the sweet spot.

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Old June 9, 2009, 07:30 PM
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Hey Lowfat

Just go and listen. That really helps a lot and could save you the aggravation of buying something you won't like.

I'd only buy online if I had a pretty good idea of what I was getting based on my own experience.
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Old June 9, 2009, 07:41 PM
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Hey Lowfat

Just go and listen. That really helps a lot and could save you the aggravation of buying something you won't like.

I'd only buy online if I had a pretty good idea of what I was getting based on my own experience.
I've already bought them. 2 pairs of iQ1's like 3 weeks ago and the iQ9's a week or two ago. Still need to buy the iQ6 though.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old June 10, 2009, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Sheep View Post
I find it contradictory to be a musician and think that the room and system setup don't play a big role. You're ears sound be designed to specifics. You should know your sound off by heart, and how your room interacts with it. You have to remember, what you record, will have your rooms characteristics build into the sound(unless you record through direct inputs). Unless you deal with room anomalies, you will never have the true sound. If you like the rooms sound, that's one thing, but ordinary rooms have not been shown to have a desirable sound.
Huh?

I'm very confused by your post.


Let me put it to you this way. I play guitar. Older-model tube-based guitar amps of virtually every brand had an open back. Closing the back off creates an entirely different sound.

In order to re-create that sound, the speaker used must have similar properties. It's quite simple, really.

I don't want to hear my speakers...I should not be able to tell they are even there. My focus is not on surround effects, but more on creating a "wall of sound" that contains highly directional notes of all ranges.

If I listen to a concert track, and the 4th chair cello is slightly out of tune, I want to be able to tell ti was the fourth chair, and hear those notes come distinctively from that place on the stage.

With a single sub, I can tell that all bass notes sub-30hz originate from that sub, whereever it is in the room. I've tried all sorts of placements, including being built into furniture, and in the end, I have found that the only accurate way to reproduce stereo-recorded audio in it's full spectrum is for its full spectrum to be played back in stereo. Running a subwoofer 2x-4x the power of your other speakers, to me, is a "will do the job" scenario, rather than "striving for the best possible". I ahve 2 subs, with the stereo sub volume at it's lowest possible, and the amp on the subs is @ "2" of "10".


As a final note, you've clearly stated that you've not experienced having your bass in a true stereo format, so you don't know what it is that you are missing, or, maybe it won't even make a difference for you. 5.1 sound is now old-school, and now that high-resolution audio is far more common, old paradigms must shift to meet the new tech, which includes amplifier and speaker configs.
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Old June 10, 2009, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by cadaveca View Post
Huh?

I'm very confused by your post.


Let me put it to you this way. I play guitar. Older-model tube-based guitar amps of virtually every brand had an open back. Closing the back off creates an entirely different sound.

In order to re-create that sound, the speaker used must have similar properties. It's quite simple, really.

I don't want to hear my speakers...I should not be able to tell they are even there. My focus is not on surround effects, but more on creating a "wall of sound" that contains highly directional notes of all ranges.

If I listen to a concert track, and the 4th chair cello is slightly out of tune, I want to be able to tell ti was the fourth chair, and hear those notes come distinctively from that place on the stage.

With a single sub, I can tell that all bass notes sub-30hz originate from that sub, whereever it is in the room. I've tried all sorts of placements, including being built into furniture, and in the end, I have found that the only accurate way to reproduce stereo-recorded audio in it's full spectrum is for its full spectrum to be played back in stereo. Running a subwoofer 2x-4x the power of your other speakers, to me, is a "will do the job" scenario, rather than "striving for the best possible". I ahve 2 subs, with the stereo sub volume at it's lowest possible, and the amp on the subs is @ "2" of "10".


As a final note, you've clearly stated that you've not experienced having your bass in a true stereo format, so you don't know what it is that you are missing, or, maybe it won't even make a difference for you. 5.1 sound is now old-school, and now that high-resolution audio is far more common, old paradigms must shift to meet the new tech, which includes amplifier and speaker configs.
You've missed my point, by a long shot. I have 2 subwoofers in my stereo, but there is literally science behind where they perform well. Running subwoofers in opposing corners (Example, front left, rear right, in a rectangular room) will flatten out the response (IE, less peaks and nulls in the frequency response) and increase the sweet spot. It also helps with localization.

I also come from a guitar background, and am currently studying Audio/ Recording Engineering. I have a Hiwatt Custom 50, running through a 4x12 heil sound cab. I know the sound your talking about. Re-creating that sound doesn't mean the speaker needs to be of the same design. That makes absolutely no sense. If order for that speaker to recreate that sound, it needs to have no sonic characteristics of it's own. The way the bass radiates from the rear of the speaker enclosure is only be recorded if you mic up the room. When you play your guitar, you listen to it in the room, at a certain spot. the only way to pick up that response is to mic in that area, using a similar recording device to the human ear. Quite a long, drawn out task. Also not how most guitars are mic'd these days.

If you're looking for a large sonic image, you best bet is to look into Omnipolar speakers. However, these speakers require special room treatment locations that differ from regular Monopole speakers. Do you have room Treatments?

The speaker configuartion for 5.1 are still completely valid and usable today. I don't know where you get this diea that everything that is old is now wrong. Just becasue we've up'd the bit rate and sample rate doesn't mean the speakers need to be moved, or add extra ones in existing locations. Physics doesn't change, and the locations used for a proper 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 or .2 setups still work. Subwoofer placement is different for every room, and some rooms don't work well, regardless of where it's placed, or how good the subwoofer is.

Floyd E Tool from Harman wrote many documents (The White Papers) about how huamsn hear audio, and how loudspeakers of different types interact with listening rooms. These however, and not free and readable on the internet (not legally anyway). I suggest you look at these. Even though they are quite old (1980-90s) they are still completely valid.

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  #28 (permalink)  
Old June 10, 2009, 08:18 PM
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Yes, playing off of a Marshall stack, mic'ed, is my personal preference. Play ina bare room will no carpet, no pictures. It's an enigma, I know, but it's what I got, so I make the best of it. Call it "natural reverb"


And yes, you are right the physics doesn't change, but the chipset and processing involved does. Even high-end amps from 5 years ago don't sound like the ones today, so all of this must be accounted for. Neither do the spaekers sound the smae, similar...but even the change from papaer to plastic cones ahs had a large overall effect ion soudn reproduction.

I could care less about hte science of it, and more concentrate on what sounds good to my aging ear. Contrary to your thought that all ears are designed specifically, my daughter was born with just one, so dealing with sonic issues and human perception is a not only something I know from music, but also from daily life with my hearing-disabled daughter. Simple differenceis in how the bones responsible for hearing are formed can make a difference in perception.

BTW, my subs have front ports, my speakers do not, and maybe we are talking about two totally different, yet intrinsically the same, things here. If my speakers were front-ported(and I do have set within the same "product line"), the bass ends up over-amplified. I've chosen for dual-subs for impact and palcement, rather than sheer volume. It's about what pleases my ear, not what's mathematically correct given measurements using pink and white noise. I don't beleive you should really test with these sonic signatures, other than for power output/SPL...the true test depnds on how your ear and supporting stuctures are shaped, as well as personal preference.


It's my personal preference to never use a speaker with a front port. Very few ultra-high-end speakers do, so in the end, what I choose...is my choice.

Last edited by cadaveca; June 10, 2009 at 08:26 PM.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old June 11, 2009, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cadaveca View Post
Yes, playing off of a Marshall stack, mic'ed, is my personal preference. Play ina bare room will no carpet, no pictures. It's an enigma, I know, but it's what I got, so I make the best of it. Call it "natural reverb"
You and Me both, my Hiwatt has no reverb adjustment.


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Originally Posted by cadaveca View Post
And yes, you are right the physics doesn't change, but the chipset and processing involved does. Even high-end amps from 5 years ago don't sound like the ones today, so all of this must be accounted for. Neither do the spaekers sound the smae, similar...but even the change from papaer to plastic cones ahs had a large overall effect ion soudn reproduction.
Amplifiers still sound the same. This is why I brought up the Floyd E Tool White Papers. He did many blind comparisons between thousands of test subjects, to show how humans perceived sound, and what changes were generally preferable. A DBX test will show that most people cannot find the difference between 2 equally built amplifiers. Speaker technology advances, but when you have a speaker that faithfully reproduces the sounds it's being sent, you can stay with it as long as that is what you want. If you change to a speaker that colors the sound a different way, it will sound different, but better will be dependant on the listener.

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Originally Posted by cadaveca View Post
I could care less about hte science of it, and more concentrate on what sounds good to my aging ear. Contrary to your thought that all ears are designed specifically, my daughter was born with just one, so dealing with sonic issues and human perception is a not only something I know from music, but also from daily life with my hearing-disabled daughter. Simple differenceis in how the bones responsible for hearing are formed can make a difference in perception.
I never said they were designed specifically. But The Bell curve is made from thousands of test subjects. Fleture and Munson plotted the human ear's frequency response. This is the basis for all recording, as the flattest response the human ear hears is at 85dB. This is the monitoring standard volume for all studios. There is one organ that plays teh biggest role in human hearing perception, and it's between your ears.

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Originally Posted by cadaveca View Post
BTW, my subs have front ports, my speakers do not, and maybe we are talking about two totally different, yet intrinsically the same, things here. If my speakers were front-ported(and I do have set within the same "product line"), the bass ends up over-amplified. I've chosen for dual-subs for impact and palcement, rather than sheer volume. It's about what pleases my ear, not what's mathematically correct given measurements using pink and white noise. I don't beleive you should really test with these sonic signatures, other than for power output/SPL...the true test depnds on how your ear and supporting stuctures are shaped, as well as personal preference.
If the bass is over-amplified, that is a characteristic of the room. You can't blame a speaker for poor playback if it's placed in a lousey room.

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Originally Posted by cadaveca View Post
It's my personal preference to never use a speaker with a front port. Very few ultra-high-end speakers do, so in the end, what I choose...is my choice.
Yep, but you can't say that it's a design fault.

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  #30 (permalink)  
Old June 11, 2009, 07:16 PM
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Yep, but you can't say that it's a design fault.

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I didn't......that was enaberif!

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Originally Posted by cadaveca
Sure. In comparison to the same general design, my ears prefer the port to be rear-facing.
I'm pretty sure I said MY ears!



And like I said, for my uses. lol. Overall we agree, it's just that my preference(and I stated that from the outset), to have a speaker with a rear-facing port. enaberif said it was a desgin choice to falsely amplify the sound...and he's kinda right, but that doesn't make that tuning bad!




BTW, my family has a history of hearing anomlies..I can hear the tube tv downstairs on from upstairs...as well as most other electronics...there's one other user here with the same "sort" of ears. And like me, few people he knows can hear it either!


And...if all amps sounded the same, there'd be no need to have so many models...there is a definate difference form amp-to-amp, largely due to OMPAMP choice. A different electronic signature of OPAMPs is widely documented, and is a definate feature of OMPAMPs.

Last edited by cadaveca; June 11, 2009 at 07:23 PM.
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