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  #51 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 03:48 PM
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@ SKYMTL / AkG

I think that this argument here must make you reconsider the methodology regarding testing coolers that don't come with a pre-included fan. So, in my opinion, you MUST re-test Prolimatech Megahalems, with 3 fans - one of 800-900 rpm, one with ~ 1300 rpm, one with at least 1800-2000 rpm. First case - silent users, second case - moderate overclock-ers, third case - extreme air-overclockers. Or at least the first and the third case. If you've had done that in the first place, none of this argument would have hapenned.

Have you ever wondered WHY certain producers don't sell their coolers (heatsinks) bundled with a fan? That's because their coolers are ment to fulfil the needs of every kind of pc enthusiasts - modders, silent-freaks (like me) and overclockers. Megahalems is the best heatsink ever. Period. And only a flawed methodology like yours can put another cooler (heatsink + fan) in front of it.

Also, when I look here, and here, I don't understand why you didn't consider to squeeze all the data in the same graphic (the data regrding Megahalems + dual fans and + Scythe F 1600 rpm in the CM 212+ review).

I'm sorry if my tone is too harsh, but if you don't take my advice seriously into account, you'll loose one reader - me.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 05:12 PM
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Testing different fans with one cooler may make an interesting article in the future but to add all of that into the reviews would take far too long and would still have people ask for more. It opens up a can of worms because these same people who are complaining now would argue about which fans we ended up using (look at the arguments in this thread about the Noctua fan) along with many other things.

There is no way to please everyone but what we are considering is grabbing a few choice coolers and writing an article regarding about how fan speed can impact performance of heatsinks. How or when this article is written is still TBD but adding three fans per cooler is just nuts IMO.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 07:47 PM
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Totally acceptable and agreeable results at least for me..

Instead of talking BS and criticizing, I think you guys should appreciate the reviews done by these reviewers, it might be very easy for you to read and find errors in the review, but it's way more difficult for the reviewers to actually make that review for you to see..

Think for once, if these guys didn't care about public reading the reviews and becoming one of the few trusted reviews on the web out there, they would have just write half reviews that make no sense or incorrect information, bur rather they spend so much time and energy reviewing products and providing quality results that DO make sense and try and compare EVERY possible method out there... Off course the Prolimatech cooler is really good, but this reviews wasn't about that cooler, it was about the Hyper 212+ cooler, how good it was out of the box, the fact it supports dual fans out of the box, the fact it has such a nice polished flat base, the fact that the fan provided isn't just a cheapo fan that we see on lots of heatsinks, it is a quality 2k fan, the fact that it isn't meant for extreme cooling, the fact that it comes with a proper mounting kit out of the box.. Hek the reviewer even goes enough to mention what SKY had quoted earlier, that the Prolimatech proves itself the King as more processor heat is generated...

Guys.. stop the questioning on the reviews and appreciate the people behind the scenes on the reviews, before they stop writing reviews and we suffer, not that they will, but they can if they want..

Sorry Akg, SKY if I spoke something incorrect, I wish I didn't...
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 09:00 PM
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I support HWC's review of the Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus CPU heatsink.

If a CPU heatsink has a fan included in the package, I expect the review to contain readings and observations for the included fan. If the included fan does not perform as expected (possible POS), the reviewer should have the option to test the heatsink with a fan that has a known performance to the readers. For example, during OCZ Vendetta 2 review, HWC tested the OCZ fan then tested a Noctua NF-P12 fan. The Noctua reduced temps by 2 degrees.

If a fan is not included with a heatsink, I would expect a reviewer to use a fan that has been used in previous reviews; such as, the Noctua fan. If a reader wants to purchase the Megahalem and install a super quiet fan or a 80+ cfm fan on the cooler, he/she should post the results in the forums - Knowledge is Power.

If I purchased the Megahalem, I would install high cfm fans and enjoy the low temps.

In reality, the CM Hyper 212 Plus is within my budget and should be plenty with 2 fans mounted.

I appreciate having a Canadian site that I can obtain valuable information.

Thank you Hardware Canucks

Last edited by HalifaxPete; July 12, 2009 at 09:07 PM. Reason: missing text
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
While it does come out swinging and does continue to keep swinging even with the speed dial set to 11, in the end the 212 PLUS was edged out by the Prolimatech…which was also paired with a slower, quieter fan. We have a sneaking suspicion that this cooler was about maxed out and that if we had gone even higher the large mass of the Prolimatech would have continued to prove its worth. We also have to wonder if the numbers would have been as close IF the Prolimiatech had also been paired with a 2000rpm fan. On the positive side…oh my GOD! This cooler kicks some major butt and while it is edged out it does post some awesome numbers
Quote:
Since the extra clips are provided, we think lot of people will want to run dual fans on this unit so we elected to use two Noctua NF-P12-1300 fans for this test.
By the way on dual fan testing, the Noctua fans were used on the Hyper 212+ because they probably only had one 2k rpm fan that was received with the cooler.

AkG.. maybe you could just post some results on the Hyper 212+ with one Noctua fan, so all these guys can have some satisfaction, that's if it is possible and when you have free time.

Actually one question I had myself.. a little off maybe, sorry.. Would you rate a Gelid fan to be as efficient and quite as a Noctua fan.. the prices on the Gelids are pretty darn good, and the design is pretty well too, as it supposed to last much more than a sleeve baring fan..

Thanks.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 10:49 PM
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None is questioning the work behind the reviews. We are just talking about methodology and result presentation. From my point of view the testing conditions are not very relevant: 20 degrees is a pretty low ambient temperature especially in the summer, and obviously their i7 is not producing enough heat to differenciate heatsinks more clearly. Heres a few screen shots with a similar setup and the temps:

Thermolab Baram with 2x1900 rpm fans
Thermalright IFX-14 with 2x1900 rpm fans

And an HDT reprezentative Alpenfoehn Brocken with 2x 1900 rpm fans

These are taken from xbitlabs. Heres another test where HDT coolers are stomped by normal coolers: InsideHW - 9-Way CPU Coolers Roundup

In the end the choice is yours: you either keep producing reviews with little relevance for the average Joe and you keep brainwashing your readers into thinking something is good when it obviously isn't or you could at least include a section in the review dedicated to enthusiasts: high to very high TDP and heatsinks tested with the same fan setup.

Thats all from me. I'm not trying to tell you what to do instead I'm trying to help you stay relevant.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL View Post
Since that even at idle the temperatures produced by the GPU, VRMs, memory, PWM, HDD etc, etc never progress in a linear or repeatable fashion, comparing one heatsink to another in a closed case is next to impossible.
Then when average Joe with his average case and average GPU will OC his average Nehalem @3.8GHz and 1.45V and he'll see his CPU in (near) throttle with his screaming Hyper 212 probably will be disappointed by HWC review.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmaz View Post
But i have crap airflow
OK, then Hyper with a 2k fan should be OK for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by miggs78 View Post
Instead of talking BS and criticizing, I think you guys should appreciate the reviews done by these reviewers
As I said HWC is (was?) on my very short list of trusty reviews site and I always appreciate their reviews (I've linked them many times in our forums) but this don't stop me to say something if I see something that I disagree. I'm not an yes-man, usually I say what I have do say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by miggs78 View Post
AkG.. maybe you could just post some results on the Hyper 212+ with one Noctua fan, so all these guys can have some satisfaction, that's if it is possible and when you have free time.
I don't need satisfaction because I know where a HDT heatsink stay on a regular Nehalem @3.8GHz and 1.45V in a closed case at usual ambient temperature: upper 80's.
All I want to say in my posts was that HWC Hiper 212 charts will not translate in real life. At least not for a Nehalem heavily OC-ed.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 11:38 PM
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Where do you guys get off thinking that an OC'ed Nehalem is an "average" system? It's an enthusiast system (I don't even personally know another person that has one), and I, for one, would take these results for what they are. A stock CM fan on a decently performing heatsink. Why don't you guys just demand a Delta be tested on it while you are at it? EVERYONE who buys this cooler will receive the stock fan. If they want to replace it because they are unhappy with the CM fan, good on them, and I hope they post the results somewhere for other people to read.

Everything that's reviewed should be as it comes out of the box, not after fan changes, lapping, or cutting it up. Everyone is looking for something different, based on their preferences, be it heat, silence or bling.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SugarJ View Post
Everything that's reviewed should be as it comes out of the box, not after fan changes, lapping, or cutting it up. Everyone is looking for something different, based on their preferences, be it heat, silence or bling.
Cool. Then why didn't they test Megahalems only in passive mode (since it doesn't bundle a fan)?

If they think to change their methodology of testing coolers that don't come with a bundled fan (and only them, and also for the average Joe - who by the way has to make a choice weather to buy a low, medium or high-rpm fan for it, they are not robots that only buy Noctua at 1300 rpm), then everything would be okey-dokey. I'm also talking about the average Joe... who should have the info before making the buying decision, and that informations aren't included in the hardwarecanucks's tests...

Also a cooler that doesn't come bundled with a fan is targeting mainly the enthusiasts. Shouldn't that also be taken into consideration?
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old July 13, 2009, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicaNeaga View Post
Cool. Then why didn't they test Megahalems only in passive mode (since it doesn't bundle a fan)?

If they think to change their methodology of testing coolers that don't come with a bundled fan (and only them, and also for the average Joe - who by the way has to make a choice weather to buy a low, medium or high-rpm fan for it, they are not robots that only buy Noctua at 1300 rpm), then everything would be okey-dokey. I'm also talking about the average Joe... who should have the info before making the buying decision, and that informations aren't included in the hardwarecanucks's tests...

Also a cooler that doesn't come bundled with a fan is targeting mainly the enthusiasts. Shouldn't that also be taken into consideration?
Prolimatech Megahalems CPU Cooler Review :)

This will be my last comment on the subject as we're talking in circles......

Everything you've asked for WRT the Megahalems seems to already be included in the review for that particular cooler. The disconnect seems to be that this review isn't about that cooler yet you feel we should be including either all possible results for every comparison cooler (our graphs would soon be 5 pages long), or that we should only use the best possible results for coolers which don't ship with fans (IMHO, that offers wayyyy too much chance of abuse, or potential bias so I won't be supporting that option).

As quoted above, the limitations of the Hyper 212 Plus at higher OCs are clearly stated, and to top it off the comparisons made are with the cooler you seem to think we're giving a bum rap.

I'm afraid that in this case, we're going to have to agree to disagree.... all of the information you're looking for is easily available on this website, and you're asking us to change our testing methodology which would (IMO) degrade the impartiality of our cooler reviews.
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