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  #41 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by halfwaythere View Post
Ok, let me see if I get this straight: you guys randomly decided that the best fan for Megahalems is a Noctua NF-P12. Great fans, I have a few of them, a bit on the expensive side thats why I don't think they can't be found in almost every setup, but not the best fans.
Absolutely not. The Noctua is a great fan, especially when high static pressure is necessary. How you get that we randomly decided to use it is beyond me. We have been using it for as long as I can remember for our CPU cooler reviews. In no way did we randomly select it.

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To me it looks like you avoided an apples to apples comparison just to make the 212+ look good. But probably thats just my paranoia talking.
Hardly. There are so many fans and combinations out there that it would be impossible to test them all. If we would have used a different combination to make the Megahalems look better, people would have been bitching about that. Like I said: damned if we do and damned if we don't.

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Since English is not my first language I'll say that again: you have the data for a righteous comparison but you did it use it? Why is that?
You wanted to have the two compared with the same fan, correct? You are right, adding that to the review in its own section would have been an interesting prospect but hindsight is always 20 / 20 and we can't go back at this point. In addition, it would not have changed out opinion of the 212 PLUS.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 11:56 AM
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If you do the review just to confirm your hunches its ok to publish whatever data you feel is correct. Since you have constant readers and you earn a lot from adds and clicks maybe an impartial result would be more relevant.

There are many fans better than the Noctua but thats not the point of this discussion.

Basically you're admitting the results are flawed because you never produced a graph with identical setups. See thats why I don't understand why you include other coolers in reviews since your conclusion is based on individual results.

A more reasonable conclusion would've been: The Cooler Master 212+ is a decent heatsink if used with a setup similar to ours.

Chances someone else will always have 20 degrees inside the room and get an i7 that is so cold at 1.45v are very slim. Its a pity you don't realize that you're propagating a trend which is flawed to begin with: HDT coolers will never stand a chance at higher TDP values against a regular designed tower cooler.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by halfwaythere View Post
I
Basically you're admitting the results are flawed because you never produced a graph with identical setups. See thats why I don't understand why you include other coolers in reviews since your conclusion is based on individual results.


Oh come on now. None of the results are flawed. We used the same (and CORRECT) testing methodology and those are the CORRECT results you are looking at. Period. Our reviews' conclusions are based on comparative results. If you wanted individual results, maybe we should have tested the Megalalems in a fanless configuration since...well...it doesn't come with a fan. Meanwhile, we give it what many argue is one of the best sub-1500RPM fans for high static pressure situations on the market.

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A more reasonable conclusion would've been: The Cooler Master 212+ is a decent heatsink if used with a setup similar to ours.
I fail to see your point. Every review on the face of the internet be it of a car, a CPU cooler or anything else for that matter is based on what individual testing conditions will allow it to be. Period.

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Chances someone else will always have 20 degrees inside the room and get an i7 that is so cold at 1.45v are very slim.
It is impossible to test in every condition with every possible thing factored in. We provide a controlled testing environment which is necessary for your "apples to apples" comparisons.

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Its a pity you don't realize that you're propagating a trend which is flawed to begin with:
HDT coolers will never stand a chance at higher TDP values against a regular designed tower cooler.
Now that is bullshit. HDT coolers provide a direct link between the IHS and the main heat conducting element of a heatsink. That in turn speeds up heat transfer without another medium getting in the way. The main issue with HDT coolers at this time is that their fin arrays just aren't large enough to properly disperse the amount of heat that gets transfered to them and thus will tend to have issues at the higher end of the spectrum. Build be a HDT cooler with a fin assembly the size of the Megahalems or TRUE and I'll show you a cooler with amazing potential.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 12:53 PM
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Sorry, but I don't see the issue here, and I certainly don't see how we could be accused of trying to skew the results. We clearly state our testing methods, and those who want to dig deeper have the ability to go back and review the full results of any cooler included in the charts for comparison. For obvious reasons our charts can't include every possible combination for every cooler included in the list, and a choice was made that comparisons for coolers would be with stock fans, or a standard reference fan in the case of those which ship without stock fans. If we didn't set those baselines, where do we stop? Do we slap a couple of 60 db fans onto the coolers which don't ship with fans? That'd get the best results for them, but would severely skew the results against the coolers which ship with stock fans.

If this had been a head-to-head comparison, I'd agree that the testing methods are flawed. If we had used results which didn't incorporate stock cooling, I'd agree that the results would be flawed. In this case though, the comparison results are provided as a baseline for all of the coolers we've reviewed, in accordance with the same testing methods we apply across the board. If we were to change our baseline testing methods in such a way as to favour one cooler over the rest then I could see a case being made for the review being biased.

As it stands, we do put a lot of thought into what we're going to use for baseline testing methods, but (as in this case) sometimes those results don't tell the whole story, and in cases like that we encourage folks to share their opinions/experiences which run counter to our posted results. That doesn't however mean that we're going to deviate from our testing methodology for the sake of a single result.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 12:56 PM
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I remember a discussion between a hardware enthusiast and a Scythe representative. He asked him why doesn't Scythe make an HDT cooler since they seem so popular these days. The response was this: We tested the HDT technology in every combination and arrangement and everytime the results where worse than our normal coolers.

There are quite a few HDT cooler with similar fin structure to TRUEs: Thors hammer and DeepCool Ice Blade Pro to mention a few.

Theres something else I found odd about your tests: you seem to have a core i7 cpu that runs Orthos with HT on at 65 degrees with a lot of coolers. That for me is a miracle. The other oddity is the Coolermaster V8 test. Your results are the worst I have come across . You should've asked yourselves if you received a defective sample before posting such bad results. Theres no way this cooler is 15 degrees behind a swarm of HDT coolers. Anyway nice talking to you but I'm leaving with a bitter taste because you allowed marketing to take over decency.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 12:57 PM
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I search my pockets and I find my last 2 cents.
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Originally Posted by SKYMTL View Post
The main issue with HDT coolers at this time is that their fin arrays just aren't large enough to properly disperse the amount of heat that gets transfered to them and thus will tend to have issues at the higher end of the spectrum.
Nope SKY, their main problem is base finishing an poor contact on 2 heatpipes with IHS (at least for non-Nehalems/Phenoms CPU's).
Fortunately Hyper 212 seems to have a better base and a 2k fan on it. Both helps it to climb the charts but I highly doubt that who buy it can stand a 2k fan daily and he'll keep a Nehalem @3.8GHz and 1.45V at 65.5C in a case at 23-25C ambient.

I saw that reviews are made for average Joe who want a new heatsink. In this case adjust your testbed accordingly: a decent case with a standard airflow (one 120 mm intake and one exhaust both at @1000 RPM) not open stand and 20C ambient, same fan for all heatsinks not a 2K for one and a 1.3k for others and a more usual CPU which is not cold as ice. Then you'll have apple to apple. Until then those charts are just some numbers without an anchor in real life.

Two more questions (at least I hope): HT was on? I ask because without HT you can gain ~10C. Turbo ON? I ask because funny things happens with multiplier on some X58 boards when approaching to TDP limit.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by burebista View Post
I search my pockets and I find my last 2 cents.

Nope SKY, their main problem is base finishing an poor contact on 2 heatpipes with IHS (at least for non-Nehalems/Phenoms CPU's).
Fortunately Hyper 212 seems to have a better base and a 2k fan on it. Both helps it to climb the charts but I highly doubt that who buy it can stand a 2k fan daily and he'll keep a Nehalem @3.8GHz and 1.45V at 65.5C in a case at 23-25C ambient.

I saw that reviews are made for average Joe who want a new heatsink. In this case adjust your testbed accordingly: a decent case with a standard airflow (one 120 mm intake and one exhaust both at @1000 RPM) not open stand and 20C ambient, same fan for all heatsinks not a 2K for one and a 1.3k for others and a more usual CPU which is not cold as ice. Then you'll have apple to apple. Until then those charts are just some numbers without an anchor in real life.

Two more questions (at least I hope): HT was on? I ask because without HT you can gain ~10C. Turbo ON? I ask because funny things happens with multiplier on some X58 boards when approaching to TDP limit.
I would buy it w/ a 2.5k fan. My crappy AMD stock heatsink is at 3.5k and one is at 2.5k. ITS SUBJECTIVE!!!
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 01:43 PM
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For your CPU (in your sig) is enough a Ninja 2/Z600. Fanless.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burebista View Post
I search my pockets and I find my last 2 cents.

Nope SKY, their main problem is base finishing an poor contact on 2 heatpipes with IHS (at least for non-Nehalems/Phenoms CPU's).
Fortunately Hyper 212 seems to have a better base and a 2k fan on it. Both helps it to climb the charts but I highly doubt that who buy it can stand a 2k fan daily and he'll keep a Nehalem @3.8GHz and 1.45V at 65.5C in a case at 23-25C ambient.
Sorry, I lumped in the Hyper and one other new HDT cooler I have seen (unreleased) in with the current crop. Bases have improved a lot over the first generation of HDTs so to me they are a non-issue these days...unless you are buying a Vendetta 2 or Xigmatek S1283.

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Until then those charts are just some numbers without an anchor in real life.
The main issue is control. What happens if ambients one day are 20C and the next time we test a cooler are 26C? Here in Canada and even in your native Romania, massive temperature swings happen on a regular basis. That is reality. Unfortunately, we can't control that and we all know how much ambient temps can influence results. So much so that comparing a cooler in a 20C room and again in a 24C room would result in an exponential difference in CPU temps.

The same thing goes for putting a cooler in a closed case environment. Since that even at idle the temperatures produced by the GPU, VRMs, memory, PWM, HDD etc, etc never progress in a linear or repeatable fashion, comparing one heatsink to another in a closed case is next to impossible.

Quote:
Two more questions (at least I hope): HT was on? I ask because without HT you can gain ~10C. Turbo ON? I ask because funny things happens with multiplier on some X58 boards when approaching to TDP limit.
That is a good observation. Turbo mode does cause the CPU to throttle when reaching its TDP limits. To my knowledge, AkG's overclocks are purely based off of actual speed without turbo mode enabled. In addition, HT was enabled as this is the setting most people use on their i7 setups.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by burebista View Post
For your CPU (in your sig) is enough a Ninja 2/Z600. Fanless.
But i have crap airflow
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