Go Back   Hardware Canucks > CASES & COOLING > Air Cooling

    
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 07:15 AM
sswilson's Avatar
Moderator
F@H
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Moncton NB
Posts: 14,535

My System Specs

Default

I can understand the wish for some manner of comparing apples to apples, but in all honesty, the only true test of that would be to stick with the air cooler at stock. Perhaps a baseline of slapping a certain fan on all of the 12cm coolers would help, but where do you draw the line? Some coolers would benefit from a high CFM fan, others from high Static Pressure. Some would excel at providing great temps at low RPM (relative), while others would perform best with a couple of screamers in push/pull config. If we stuck with one particular fan, every review would have somebody complaining that the #s we used were skewed either pro/con based on what result they were hoping to see.

Knowing what a cooler would do under all different configs would be great, but that kind of thing is best left to members to report back. It's a slippery slope... if we included 4 different configs for every cooler, somebody would be looking for a fifth or sixth. As it stands, stock benchmarking alone takes a whole evening, and then there's the photos, the actual build, the charts, and finally putting it all together in the review. Quite simply there aren't enough hours in a day for a volunteer staff member to spend the kind of hours it would take to cover all of the bases.
__________________
MSI Z87I Gaming AC / i5 4670K / 2X 4G Gskill 1866 DDR3 / XFX XTR 750 / EVGA GTX 680 SC+ 2GB / Intel DC S3700 200G / random 160G Sata HDD
Inwin 904 / Swiftech MCP655-b / Alphacool NexXxos XT45 120 Rad / 2X Scythe GT AP-15 / EK Supreme HF / Dell UltraSharp U2412M

Asrock AM1H-ITX / AM1 Athlon 5350 / 2X4G Gskill PC3-14900 / Intel 6235 Wi-Fi / 90W Targus Power Brick / 320G Seagate Momentus / Mini-Box M350 / 1X 22" Dell IPS / 1X 22" HP
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 07:26 AM
AkG's Avatar
AkG AkG is offline
Hardware Canucks Reviewer
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,332
Default

Halfwaythere, thank you for your input and welcome to the forum!... but I think you need to REread the testing methodology page.

"Except where noted all comparison testing was done on an open bench with a constant ambient temperature of 20c. If at any time the room temperature increased or decreased by more than 1°C testing was halted untill the temperature constant was reestablished."

The testing of the various coolers may taken place over a long period of time (some of the 775 results are now a year old) BUT all were done in the same environment. It just would not be reasonable to retest every cooler again and again every time we get a new one. That would take an extreme amount of time. For example there is over 20 coolers in the 775 charts. That would mean at least 300 hours of testing for the next cooler.....315 for the following etc etc and this would not include the time needed to test the NEW cooler.

I do not see how any one can say we are losing creditability over not doing that as no review site (professionally staffed or volunteer) does that! If your review site does, or if you know of any one that does do this please let me know as I would love to be able to tweak our setup to improve it.

As I stated earlier we test them as YOU would get them. If a person is swapping out the stock fan they know they are going to change the performance characteristics by doing so. If it doesn't come with a fan, we have to use something and the one we use is a pretty darn good one!

Can you please be more specific in what "distortion of reality" has occurred? I assume you mean this vs the Prolimatech? Using a 1300rpm fan as our default fan is what most people use, and I think it was fair to use it on that great cooler. CM's cooler is the odd ball, but as I stated earlier the 212+ in its stock configuration does beat most other coolers which are also in their stock configuration. That is what you are purchasing and that is what we are testing. I will not cater to the extreme overclocker if it is to the detriment of the average joe computer enthusiast. When "joe 6 pack the computer hobbyist" buy a CM 212+ it comes with a 2000rpm fan. Nothing more nothing less. That will be HIS reality. Your reality may be different.

Would someone be wrong for saying its the best thing since sliced bread? That would be an enthusiastic over-reaction BUT it is the best HDT we have ever tested and I doubt another HDT will come along and match its numbers UNLESS it includes an kick arse fan like this one. More importantly should we penalize CM or any other MFG'er for including an above average fan? That is the crux of the issue and I have explained my reasoning earlier. YMMV.

In the end (and this is NOT aimed at you) I have no problems taking a credibility hit with the extreme OC'ing crowd as A) they are a minority no matter how vocal they are and I will not try to cater to them if its at the expense of the majority B) most use at least Water or Liquid Nitrogen and look down their nose at mere "air cooling" C) get three in a room and you will have three different answers on what the "best" anything is :) but mainly D) I'm old and mature enough to know that no matter what I do someone will think its wrong. It was a tough call on testing As Is with this cooler but I think it was the right call. However, I'm also mature enough to know that I'm not always right! If any of you guys n gals can tell me where I can improve go for it! I may not take your advice BUT I guarantee you I WILL listen and give it serious consideration.


Quote:
Originally Posted by halfwaythere View Post
First of all gratz on the work flawed as it may be.

I think you don't stress enough during the review that you compare heatsinks with different fans and tested in different session. One might argue that a couple of degrees between different session could simply be substracted from the final result. I'm afraid thats not really a very rigorous methodology because temperature doesn't vary linearly.

Burebistas reaction is very correct because some regular bloke looking at you chats will end up buying the 212+ and proclaiming it the best thing since sliced bread. And you and I know thats not true.

Maybe you should change your way of testing heatsinks to something more relevant: pick the best heatsink from your previous tests and test it versus a new one. First at stock settings and after that with the same fan setup. You don't have to include all of the other irrelevant coolers because everybody will understand that you are looking for the best solution.

There are many way of distorting reality and one of them is by omission. Too bad cause you're the ones losing credibility.
__________________
"If you ever start taking things too seriously, just remember that we are talking monkeys on an organic spaceship flying through the universe." -JR

“if your opponent has a conscience, then follow Gandhi. But if you enemy has no conscience, like Hitler, then follow Bonhoeffer.” - Dr. MLK jr
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 07:35 AM
SKYMTL's Avatar
HardwareCanuck Review Editor
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 11,668
Default

Here is the main thing: we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. Many heatsinks that come with fans use ones working between 1200-1500RPMs so we ended up choosing one smack dab in the middle of the performance spectrum for the coolers that don't have a fan. Unfortunately, once in a blue moon a cooler will come along with a higher RPM fan. We could have easily given the 212 PLUS our DG Award but didn't for the sole reason that it uses a higher RPM, noisier fan to get the job done.

What we all have to remember is that a testing methodology is there to be a constant and not changed just because one review might look skewed / slanted in an incorrect direction. Why should we give Prolimatech a helping hand when they don't even include a fan with their ultra expensive cooler? Using a faster RPM fan on the Megahalems and making an exception for this review "just because it was beaten by a less expensive cooler" smacks of us giving preferential treatment for no reason. Yes the same can be said about the 212 Plus but like I said: the CM cooler CAME with a fan while the Megahalems DID NOT.

Maybe in future reviews of this nature we will do a small section comparing a few heatsinks decked out with higher RPM fans but at this point I just don't think that is necessary. People seem to think that the way we tested in this review is somehow flawed but in all reality all we are doing is sticking to our methodologies while not changing them to favor Prolimatech.

I also want to make clear that the 2000RPM fan is not the only reason why this cooler is so good. Yes, it is one of the reasons but there are others:

- A PROPERLY FINISHED HDT base. This is the first time in our testing that we have come across an (almost) perfectly finished HDT base
- HDT. I think everyone now realizes that HDT technology is much more efficient than a standard contact plate + heat conduction
- Perfectly spaced heatpipes. The air from the fan hits the heatpipes equally so some of the heat is dispersed before even getting to the fins
- Well designed fins and face. Very important so the air pushed by the fan finds the most efficient way through the fin assembly

These reasons are why I think that even if we equipped the Megahalems with a 2000RPM fan that the results between it and the CM 212 PLUS would still be quite close. However, due to the CM's lack of fin surface area when compared to the Megahalems, it will always loose its polish when faced with an extremely high heat load. As such, to me the Prolimtech is a "brute force" cooler which relies on surface area and doesn't show its real self until the heat loads increase towards the higher end of the spectrum. Meanwhile the 212 PLUS is VERY efficient at lower temperatures due to its underlying technologies (see points above) but lacks that brute force of a massive cooling assembly and thus uses its fan as a crutch at higher loads.

I should also stress that AkG's numbers may seem "low" because of two reasons: his i7 920 is one of the cooler running ones I have seen and b) the testing room he uses is temperature controlled to 20*C. 20*C is near room temperature but many other sites don't seem to care about properly controlling temperature so comparisons from one review to the next may be slightly off due to fluctuations in ambient temperature.

We also use a TIM application method for HDT coolers that properly covers the base surface area.

Phew.
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 08:14 AM
burebista's Avatar
Allstar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 598

My System Specs

Default

AkG I guess you put me in the wrong category.
I'm not an OC-er, I'm a silence freak. Good Lord I have no idea about OC but I know something about silence so I must learn a lot about fans and heatsinks.
IMO a guy who want to replace his stock cooler it must do it for 2 valid reasons:
- silence
- overclock
I leave alone hardcore OC-ers on air because they know what are they looking for, I speak only for the 99% remaining of regular users. For them even box cooler is OK (especially if they get a Nidec fan instead Delta).
For silence freaks a 2000 RPM 120 mm fan is a no-no. No matter what brand, a 2000 RPM fan is not silent. Heck, I heard both my Noctua's P12 at 1000 RPM so I must keep them under 900 RPM's. They have another heatsink category to choose from, something like Scythe Ninja 2 or CM Z600 both fanless usually.
For casual OC-ers indeed a HDT heatsink is best bag for the bucks. Excellent performance/price ratio. Agree with that without doubts.
But for more demanding OC (especially with "old" quads and Nehalem) HDT is not so good compared with a top air solution (Megahalems, TRUE lapped and modded, Mugen 2, NH-U12P for example). So this is why I wrote here because from your graphs average Joe see only that CM H212 is on par with Megahalems which is not true if we test them in same conditions. I don't say they fail cooling all I say is that a significant difference between HDT and a "classic" top air solution.

@SKYMTL.
Quote:
A PROPERLY FINISHED HDT base. This is the first time in our testing that we have come across an (almost) perfectly finished HDT base
Indeed HDT base finishing is their Achilles heel. My friend gained 5°C only from lapping Alpenföhn Brocken



but in the end it still away from TRUE lapped @22°C room temperature.



Quote:
HDT. I think everyone now realizes that HDT technology is much more efficient than a standard contact plate + heat conduction
Depends on heatpipes numbers. You can see in my previous post the pattern on HDT base for a quad and for a i7. Usually for "old" CPU's 2 heatpipes barely touch IHS. You can see this drawback better on VGA HDT heatsinks performance.

And about fins, they are designed different by every manufacturer for heatsink specific purpose, high/medium performance or fanless. From big and spaced as in Ninja/Z600 to relatively small and tight as in TRUE or another high pressure/airflow heatsink.
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 08:35 AM
AkG's Avatar
AkG AkG is offline
Hardware Canucks Reviewer
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,332
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmaz View Post
AKG: Can you guys test these heatsinks with an AMD platform ( like the installation progress)

Also good job for noting the weird fan noise because many other review sites didn't have that observation.
Sorry jcmaz but I don't have access to a high end AMD system right now. If I did I would certainly give it a shot for you but as it stands its probably not in the cards.
__________________
"If you ever start taking things too seriously, just remember that we are talking monkeys on an organic spaceship flying through the universe." -JR

“if your opponent has a conscience, then follow Gandhi. But if you enemy has no conscience, like Hitler, then follow Bonhoeffer.” - Dr. MLK jr
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 08:55 AM
jcmaz's Avatar
Hall Of Fame
F@H
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 2,453

My System Specs

Default

thanks anyways :)
__________________
“Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.”

-Plato
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 10:08 AM
sswilson's Avatar
Moderator
F@H
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Moncton NB
Posts: 14,535

My System Specs

Default

Once these hit the retail channels I know of at least one staff member who intends on giving it a shot an a PhII platform..... ;)
__________________
MSI Z87I Gaming AC / i5 4670K / 2X 4G Gskill 1866 DDR3 / XFX XTR 750 / EVGA GTX 680 SC+ 2GB / Intel DC S3700 200G / random 160G Sata HDD
Inwin 904 / Swiftech MCP655-b / Alphacool NexXxos XT45 120 Rad / 2X Scythe GT AP-15 / EK Supreme HF / Dell UltraSharp U2412M

Asrock AM1H-ITX / AM1 Athlon 5350 / 2X4G Gskill PC3-14900 / Intel 6235 Wi-Fi / 90W Targus Power Brick / 320G Seagate Momentus / Mini-Box M350 / 1X 22" Dell IPS / 1X 22" HP
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 10:40 AM
geokilla's Avatar
Hall Of Fame
F@H
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,625

My System Specs

Default

Believe it or not, HDT coolers are the way of the future. A Vendetta 2 with only 3 heatpipes and costs only $30 is comparable to a TRUE that costs over $60, which for an extra $30 performs only marginally better. I think I'll stick with the Vendetta 2 thank you.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 10:49 AM
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 26
Default

Ok, let me see if I get this straight: you guys randomly decided that the best fan for Megahalems is a Noctua NF-P12. Great fans, I have a few of them, a bit on the expensive side thats why I don't think they can't be found in almost every setup, but not the best fans.

The other oddity about your review is this chart:



and why haven't you added the data from this chart:



To me it looks like you avoided an apples to apples comparison just to make the 212+ look good. But probably thats just my paranoia talking.

Since English is not my first language I'll say that again: you have the data for a righteous comparison but you did it use it? Why is that?
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old July 12, 2009, 11:15 AM
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7
Default

you really need to put a 212+Noctua result in the chart

and you have no grounds for this
Quote:
Would someone be wrong for saying its the best thing since sliced bread? That would be an enthusiastic over-reaction BUT it is the best HDT we have ever tested and I doubt another HDT will come along and match its numbers UNLESS it includes an kick arse fan like this one.
unless you test all the HDT's with the same fan
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cooler Master V10 CPU Cooler Review Comment Thread AkG Air Cooling 60 October 22, 2011 01:52 AM
Cooler Master V8 CPU Cooler Review Comment Thread AkG Air Cooling 37 June 15, 2009 10:37 PM
Cooler Master Hyper N520 CPU Cooler Review Comment Thread AkG Air Cooling 3 June 8, 2009 07:54 PM